doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Heym rifle date of manufacture

From several sources, that is the still unpublished "Flintenkalle's Directory of the German Guntrade", concerned with pre-war addresses only, and the books H-J Fritze "Suhl, Heimat der B�chsemacher" + W.B. Dixon "European Sporting Rifle Cartridges", I have put together some additional information or remarks on the subjects under discussion.
The eagle/J (in fact a German I standing for "Instandsetzung" = repair) indicates the gun was proofed as rebarreled February 1945. The 1940 proof law required each gun to be clearly marked with the cartridge name. This is still not done. The bottom of the barrel lumps is still unengraved. No quality gun would have left a Suhl shop with such blank spaces. The rifle was never mounted with a scope, even then a "must" on a flat-shooting stalking rifle. As US forces occupied Suhl on April 3, 1945, I think the rifle was "liberated" then from a shop in Suhl, before the Russians took over Suhl on July 3, 1945. The US forces prepared a document dated April 13, 1945, listing the Suhl guntrade then in business: 23 "factories", among them Gebr�der Heym at Schlageterstr. 53 and F.W. Heym at Schillingstr. 7 and Mauerstr.3, 28 independent gunmakers, 10 dealers or agencies, 4 barrelmakers, two of them Kelbers, Louis at Tr�benbachstr.1 and Wilhelm at Beyersgrund 3. They did not list the several hundred outworkers like engravers, stockmakers or finishers then still working for the gunmakers. On October 25, 1945 Gebr�der Heym are again mentioned as one of the gunmakers producing shotguns (only) for the Soviet Union. According to Flintenkalle , who lists no less than 59 Heym's in the German guntrade, writes "Gebr�der Heym", Judithstr.53, street renamed by the Nazis Schlageterstr.53, owned at first by Richard and Emil, later by Richard and Bruno Heym, was founded in 1913. Gebr.Heym at least made the original rifle, who did the rebarrel job remains a mystery.
According to Dixon in 1942 DWM assigned case number 605 to the 7x75R and produced a first lot of 1000 cartridges. So an avid experimenter may have ordered the rebarrel job in the 1940s, but WW2 ended before the job was completed.
By now I got wiser on that "L" or "Z", resembling the symbol for the British pound sterling: This mark was used by the Gebr�der Kelber barrelmaking company, founded by Louis Kelber in 1894, owned then by Louis, Robert and Wilhelm Kelber. They used either this L stamp or a LK. In 1927 the "Gebr. Kelber" company was dissolved, but as noted above both Louis and Wilhelm Kelber started again on their own, Louis using the "LK" stamp and Wilhelm the well-known "WK". Who, one or both?, for which orders?, continued to use the "GB pound" stamp? Wilhelm at least is known as a rifling specialist, while Louis also made barrel ribs as a side business.

Very nice tid-bit of info there Axel. I have to say I should have known but I would have never put a script "L" with Kelber. But that info begs the question of just how many craftsmen did the boys Kelber employ and what was there yearly output. Because there are just so many tubes with there mark. On some they may have just been tube knitter while on others they were just the tube forgers. I thought the realization might come back to you if after ya'll moved from Strehlen to Zella Sankt Blasii while you were ferrying tubes to the Z-M proofhouse on your bicycle(which you acquired from the A. St�ver bicycle & gunshop in Harz), you remembered where you collected the tubes????? What prompting does Shotgun Charlie need to get the publication off the ground: a nasty-gram, sweet talk thru a lovely letter, funding. ....???

Was there a Model number for the stalker and where are the reamers for the 7x65 to 7x75 conversion?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey.When in doubt about computer things, I generally ask my son.
He explained the difference between the IMG address and the Photobucket address.I've done some test postings and I should be able to attach future pictures with my reply. The drilling was made in March 1938 and was originally in 7X57R with two separate stamts for this caliber. No stamp for the 7X75R rechamber. So there is no way to know if it was pre or post war
Kuduae.Thank you for your imput.A local German rifle collector also commented on the lack of engraving on the barrel lumps despite going to the work of putting a gold band around the breach. He also felt that the rifle may have not been finished due to a premature separation from its gun shop.Do you think that Gebruder Heym would have been making rifles like this one in 1944-1945 or is it more likely that it is an older rifle that was rebarreled in 1945?
Otto
Otto

IMHO this is indeed an older rifle sent to Suhl for rebarreling.
Often GIs did not know that German guns sometimes had two or more interchangeable barrels. Take f.i. my family heirloom Meffert Hubertus gun. It's original damascus barrels were smashed in 1945 and the stock broken. But my Grandfather had two pairs of new barrels made and Nitro-proofed at Zella-Mehlis in 1942, 16 & 16/70 shotgun and 6.5x52R aka.25-35 &16/70 Buechsflinten ones. I am the fifth generation since 1893 to use it.
By coincidence one of the few true H.Goering rifles surfaced just a few hours ago: It is also a 7x75R vHSE, already well documented from the making in Suhl end. This one apparently solves the mystery of the "Epl; Stuttgart" who ordered the first batch of cartridges from DWM. The Goering rifle was ordered to be made by Edgar Strempel, Suhl through Robert Eblen, a gunmaker/dealer at Lange Str., Stuttgart to be presented to H.Goering by a Mr.Truchsess.

Well how about that. Nice tid-bit of vital info. And Mr. Truchsess is the chocolatier, you've mentioned prior, who had the German Luftwaffe as a client? So maybe the penmanship was poor and "Epl" was supposed to be "E.Spl" for Edgar Strempel or Eblen? With Eblen taking the order, it still supports the theory that the bulk of the work on almost any German sporting weapon was performed either in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. Otherwise it just didn't make economic sense.

Mike Ford has an interesting Meffert dreil�ufer rebarrel post WWII.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kuduae. Do you know if the Goering rifle has the 7X75R markings on the barrel? As noted above, my rifle has no caliber or load markings and I'm not sure if it was just an oversight or the wildcat nature of the 7X75R.
Otto

Otto, I don't know how the Strempel / Eblen / G�ring / 7x75R v.Hofe SE rifle is marked, as I have only seen photos of the engravings and inlays. Here is a photo of that rifle published in H-J Fritze's "Suhl" book, probably from a Suhl archive.

IMHO the lack of caliber designation on your barrel is a further indication, like the blank lumps, that your rifle was lifted from a shop in 1945 in an unfinished state. The German 1940 proof law required the real cartridge designation to be marked on a gun before it was released to the public. As "7x75R vom Hofe Super Express" is a bit long to be stamped on the under barrel flat, it was probably intended to have this long and novel monicker engraved on one of the upper barrel flats or the rib, together with the "maker/retailer" name. Evidently your barrel never made it to an engraver after proof, so it lacks the usual inscriptions and decorations.
Loads were not to be marked after 1940 any more. While before a maker could specify a reduced-pressure load under the old law, the 1940 law required any gun to be proofed for the highest-pressure factory load then available. At the same time these pressures were set as "maximum pressure" for a given chambering. Noone was allowed to load cartridges exceeding this max pressure.

Many thanks to all for your imput.
Otto

Axel:
Any idea who the other 2 tube makers were and also have you any info that a Sch�ler(Richard/Robert/???) either owned or managed one of the Kelber's shops? Could the "GB Pound" sterling stamp be a combination of S & L?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Richard Sch�ler, the then owner of the August Sch�ler company, did not make his own barrels. He relied on barrels made mostly by Wilhelm Kelber. Wilhelm Kelber's "WK" stamp often misleads Americans to assign bolt actions Sch�ler made for the trade to Krieghoff. H-J. Fritze in his book quotes a list of the Suhl guntrade, compiled by the US Army on April 13, 1945, after they had occupied Suhl. It lists four barrelmaking "factories" active then: W.Richard J�ger (not related to Franz J�ger) at Gustloffstr.34, Louis Kelber at Tr�benbachstr.1, Wilhelm Kelber at Beyersgrund 1 and Max Stoll at D�llstr.4/6. Certainly at least these 4 were active before WW2 too.
BTW, the Suhl barrelmakers did not forge their barrel blanks, they only bored, reamed rifled and "knitted" the barrels, that is, they brazed barrels and lumps. Filing, Laying and soft soldering the ribs were responsibilities of other specialised craftsmen. The Suhl guntrade relied on only two forges for their rough parts: the Sauer forge and the Schilling forge, tm S in hexagon, now a technical museum run by very old Mr.Schilling. There was another forge, the Gesenkschmiede in Zella-Mehlis.