doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Win 21 Grand Royal

Maybe I missed something in this thread ... has someone determined that Galazan's is no longer licensed to build new Winchester M-21s?? The following is taken today from their website.

"Connecticut Shotgun manufactures the A. Galazan full sidelock over & under shotgun, the A.H. Fox shotgun, the Winchester Model 21 and the Connecticut Shotgun Model 21, our Full sidelock side by side A. Galazan, the Parker shotgun for Remington, and the RBL line of shotguns that is available in 12,16,20 and 28 gauge as well as a double saboted slug gun version."

And this on another website page, edited only to remove references to the other guns they make and service.

"In 1991 we started manufacturing the sidelock over and under, in 1992 the Fox shotgun, in 1995 the Winchester Custom Shop for the Model 21 was purchased .... We also do repair work exclusively on the Model 21 under an agreement with Winchester ...."

I recall quite a long while back that Tony stated he began building the CSMC M-21 because his Winchester license prevented him from building a Winchester M-21 below Grand American grade.

As far as their repair or custom alterations of existing Winchester M-21s being recorded by Cody, I confirmed this in 2003 -- when I sent them a field grade 16 ga. 21 with cut-down PG stock to restock in straight grip and to replace the forearm with a new custom forearm.

I don't see any reason to think Galazan's isn't authorized by license to build a grossly ostentatious Winchester M-21. If the owners of the Winchester brand can make money from it, does someone think they'd have a problem with Galazan's as licensee building this gun as a Winchester M-21 Grand Royal?

Jay

As stated earlier, anyone can build a Model 21. It however can't have a Winchester proof mark or the "Winchester" trade name applied to it without consent from Olin who still has ownership of the name.
As far as factory authorized repair centers for M21s there are several. Check on the Winchester website or inquire with them directly.

I seem to remember that Tony could, at least in the beginning , build a "Winchester" marked Model 21, but the price was mandated to be much higher than the CSMC Model 21.
This may have been only with left over Winchester frames and/or barrels?

CSMC Model 21s start at Serial # 38000.

Was looking at an old (6-8 months) American Rifleman which described the Bob Petersen collection in the National Firearms Museum in Virginia. One of the guns featured was a M21 which was described as the "King Buck" gun. Is that the same as the first Grand Royal? Gun has a gold inlay of King Buck on the right side. No mention of the left side

The Grand Royale John Olin gun had King Buck inlaid in gold on the floorplate. There was another M21 built in 1980 for well known M21 collector Grant Tom. This gun was built as a tribute gun to John Olin. On this gun King Buck was gold inlaid on the left side of the frame. The work was done by Nick Kusmit. This gun is still in the posession of the original owner. There are two pics of this gun on my website, not close ups, one with Mr. Olin and one with the entire Custom Shop and Grant Tom. The gun you refer to could be another but these two are the only ones that come immediately to mind.

It seems to me that its all a moot point! Tony is the one who builds them now!! This I know for a fact if you take a hard look at the winchester produced actions and compare them to the 21's produced by Tony, there is quite an improvement in the fit and finish. Just action the two guns the Galazan gun will action better its smoother etc. Its not just my own opinion but that of a gunsmith that has made up and rebarreled more 21's than any other smith in the country except Tony and the orginal stuff from the factory. In fact Phil Brown said the same thing before he got sick. Who's he? He had Santa Monica Guns and made 28 and 410 barrels for the 21's when no one else could get them.
That said the Grand royal is way over the top as it was when it was introduced oh these many years ago at the Sahara gun show.
The point is that was then this is now. Tony is the one who stepped up to the plate and kept them alive and makes them better!! The engraving is a personal thing and if Indian royality was still buying tarted up guns the royal would be long gone and we could get back to buying 21's that were built to our taste and pocket book.
Then there is the fox! Ask me about my foxica some time. There is a gun that is most certainly built better now than in yesteryear.
Regards
John Mc

The Grant Tom gun was recently offered at auction. I don't know if it sold.

My point is that Galazan's license apparently DOES authorize them to build and so stamp WINCHESTER M-21s. Unless someone is suggesting that this info on their website is fabricated?

"Connecticut Shotgun manufactures ... the Winchester Model 21 and the Connecticut Shotgun Model 21 ...."

I think this question hit the nail on the head. Does anyone know for sure whether Galazan can legally put the Winchester name with Winchester proof marks , which is indicative of Winchester Proof Steel, on their guns? If they legally can do this, then I agree, this entire conversation we have been engaged in is a wholly moot point.

I have to agree with what John Mc said about CSM building a better 21 than Winchester ever did. Same with Fox and likely the Parker. Anyone that has taken these guns apart knows that the originals were pretty rough inside, no where near the internal finishing of a London sidelock. I think CSM has done a super job of re-engineering these designs and the quality control.