doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke and Muzzleloaders

Reading this thread made a lightbulb go off in my head about an article I remember reading in the DGJ a long time ago. I had the good fortune to find the article written in the Spring 2000 issue (volume 11 issue 1). In the article titled "Joseph Tonks-Boston" The author, William O. Achtermeier, stated that in preparing for the article he examined 15 Tonks shotguns, including 3 single barrel percussion trap guns and 9 were choked guns. He also references a 19th century outdoors writer named Joseph W. Long who wrote, in the 1879 edition of "American Wild-fowl Shooting" a whole chapter on choke bores and relates several stories about choke bored muzzleloaders made by Joseph Tonks of Boston. This quote is from the article: "In chapter 21 Long describes the invention of the choke bore as the most valuable aid to sportsmen since the appearance ofthe percussion lock. While giving a nod to W. Papes claim as the inventor, he notes that the Englishman "...is not the original inventor..."

He goes on to state that a gunsmith named Jeremiah Smith of Smithfield, Rhode Island had been producing choke bored muzzleloaders since 1827. He goes on to speculate that Tonks may have aquired the technology either directly from Smith or indirecly as a result of his involvement in the gun trade in the region and that the techniques involved may have become common knowledge by then in hte area.

It is a long article. Those with a reference library of back issues of the DGJ will no doubt enjoy going back to read it. I certainly did.

My bad on the term percussion....all 3 English cap-lock guns I owned had vented platinum blow out plugs. Not sure where the term "blow out plugs" came from because I later found they were not designed to blow out.

Joe - you say all 3 of your BP guns shot better with "full power loads". Do you remember what they were or has it been too long ago? I've got a 10, 14, 16 and a 12 that'll eventually be shipped. Reckon the 9,10 & 13 are pretty close(?)

trelig - he used 2 f, goex. I'll experiment with others. My 18 bore double rifle LOVES swiss 1.5

ROMAC - I vaguely recall that article. I'll look it up again.

Ding & Dave - too late. I'm WAY hooked.

Joe - All my hunting for birds is within 30 yards, if not 30 FEET! For some reason I think of you as more of a waterfowler. Is that correct? Maybe because you love WC Scott guns and for some wacky reason I always associate Scotts with waterfowling. Don't ask me why.

Yes. tell us about these full power loads. I remember trying somewhere around 3 1/2 dr.2F powder loads with matching amount of shot. I found it to be a terribly unpleasant recoil. But, I maybe a little recoil shy as well. 3 dr. of 2F loads (Schuetzen powder) is enough for me as I am a wuzz.

My 10 and 9 bore shot best with 1 & 5/8oz of #4 shot and 4 & 1/2 drams of Goex 2f. I tried lots of shot and powder combinations...ranging from 1 & 1/4 oz up to 2 oz of shot. With Goex and Schuetzen powder....contrary to what you hear I thought the Goex shot cleaner out of a shotgun than the Schuetzen did.
I stopped shooting black...once the fascination wore off I quickly tired of the cleaning. After a long cold day in the winter woods gun cleaning is the last thing I want to do at dark.

(I'm more of a turkey hunter than a waterfowl hunter)

I agree Joe, give me a breechloader anytime. While a lot of fun and easy to clean I just don't have the energy anymore. But there is nothing like the sense of accomplishment you get after you've taking game with a muzzleloader!!

I find a classic Brit BP double is perfect for a drive-by!






By the way, Many Thanks for the load info, Joe.

Mr. Katt- I re-read the Starr "book" again and noted that Mr. Starr always liked 1F powder in his larger bore loads. Also, when I did the measuring and calculating (drams vs. grains is confusing to me) it seems that almost all of his loads closely match the Equal Volume of Powder and Shot theory. So, I will try this old idea soon, as I have previously used 2F powder and it did give pretty noticeable recoil when paired equal volumes with bigger shot charges. The 1F might possibly also give better shot patterns due to lower pressure than 2F; maybe this is why I've had better luck with less volume of powder than shot when using the 2F granulation powder. Lots of fun experimenting to come!

I can certainly agree with the use of a slower powder like 1F. I have always used 2F not because it is better for me than 1F, as I have never used 1F as it is not as readily available to me as 2F. I have tried 3F, and my guns and I just didn't like it all. I too have better luck with less powder than shot as well. I have become so used to drams or dram equiv. as all my old powder flasks and of course modern shot shell boxes, always talk in dram equiv. I just got used to it. Now I have to do the math to convert to grains.

Yesterday, I was patterning a 20ga. fowler for turkey season. In this gun yesterday, it appears as if 68gr. or 2 1/2dr. of 2F BP and 1 1/8 oz. looks to be the load for this gun. You can see here that the use of more shot per volume, than powder seemed to work well for this gun. I was using one over powder card, no cushion and one over shot card.

While realizing it will vary some according to brand, granulation & individual lot of the powder as well as size & alloy (hardness) of the shot an approximate equal volume is found at 2� drams-1oz. For other shot wts simply mltiply the wt by 2� to get the drams of the equal volume load. In looking over several old combo shot & powder dippers I often find them marked in � dram & 1/8oz increments.

This means that if you double the size of the cavity to go from one oz up to a whopping 2oz for the big 8ga, the powder should also be doubled to 5 drams. The dipper however will only read it to 4� drams for it has those 8 graduations marked in � dram steps. On the ones I have actually measured I have found the shot wts to be pretty close to what they say. I have always used the equal volume method for the powder charge so just set the dipper to the desired shot wt.

I do have one old dipper incidently which goes up to that 2oz of shot. Industry standard set the volume for a dram of BP as .115 CuIn many years ago, shot goes about .288 CuIn per oz. .115 x 2.5 = .2875 so the 2�-1 combo is sbout as close as you can get it without weighing out individual loads which is fine if one has nothing better to do. The volume measure is quite sufficient for my use. The bird doesn't really know, or care, if that 2� dram load contained an exact 68.359 grains or if it was just somewhere between 62 & 75.