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Joined: Jan 2002
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If you don't need any choke to shoot skeet with a breechloader, why would you need it to shoot skeet with a muzzleloader?? Trap, of course, would be a different story.

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Dingelfutz, is dead on and that's the exact passage I was thinking of but couldn't recall at the time. But Ive tried it and saw some results of a tightening and spreading of the loads, but only slightly. However I was using limited components and limited time. Additional testing could have produced better results. That particular 12 gauge Pedersoli I was using may have been slightly or very particular on the combination or configuration of the powder/shot wadding I was using. I may get back to it sometime.

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I've heard references to V M Starr's "pamphlet" many times so I ordered one earlier today for 9 bucks. I think I should have held off. I just "speed read" the whole thing on another site. Several times Old VM sounds like he doesn't know much about muzzleloaders, sometimes he even sounds like nothing but a big Dupa, to quote everyone from the neighborhood I grew up in. If there's any reference to arcane knowledge about squeezing out good patterns from essentially cylinder bored shotguns I completely missed it. Now I've just got a hadache from reading so much off a silly computer screen. How can people these days advocate reading entire books from such a thing? Strictly printed matter for this old coot when it comes to reading anything of length and/or substance.

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Now you see what I was wondering about.

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"Big Dupa" and "old coot"?! Let's show some respect! For those of us who had any contact with V.M., "courtly old gentleman" came closer to the truth. For example, I can't imagine V.M. making cracks like KK made.

To the point, however: "Not know much about muzzleloaders...?" The guy was ONLY primarily responsible for the renaissance of m/l shotgunning AND he was able to tune m/l shotguns to performance levels that have only been attainable in recent years with high-tech guns and loads AND he shot m/l shotguns about as well as anyone ever has AND a match is named after him at Friendship. Nope, the old boy sure didn't know much!

Now, V.M. did do some things that are not recommended today, like load powder directly from a flask and spitting down loaded shotgun barrels, but such were done "in the day". The rest of what V. M. recommends holds up pretty well, however.

"Arcane" knowledge is just that, i.e. "hidden"...and you guys missed it.

Please refer to V.M.'s recommendation of "bulk for bulk" loads with Fg powder. Such loads are equivalent to a LESS than a "b. for b." load with Ffg powder, which is now the most common recommendation. With such loads, denser and more even patterns can be (but not always will be) achievable with cylinder bore guns. Such patterns might not be full choke patterns by any means but they generally will be better.

Please also refer to the fact that V. M. recommends Fg powder. (V. M. assumed that the powder would be the long-lamented DuPont version.) My much more limited experience reflects V. M.'s. Fg may be dirtier-burning than Ffg and its synthetic equivalents and it generally requires larger powder charges for given velocity levels but it tends to burn "smooth" with lower levels of shot deformation and shot charge disruption, which is why I suspect that V. M. was able to use the kind of minimal wad columns that he used.

"How can people advocate reading entire books"...because the information is there, that's why! (I'll bet your teachers just LOVED you!)

KK, if the price you paid for the book is too much then send it to me. I'll reimburse your #@&*^!! nine bucks!

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OK, Ding, calm down. Your reading comprehension skills are either surely lacking or your rage towards me blinded you. Speaking of "hidden" your ignorance of syntax would fit the word neatly.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and will kindly assume that it was your rancor and rage which tripped you up. It's been known to happen.

If I must explain, I must explain. "This old coot" was a reference to me, not your hero. You also didn't finish the sentence "How can people advocate reading entire books FROM SUCH A THING". This is a reference to the complaint I made about lengthy reading, or indeed reading entire books ON A COMPUTER SCREEN. What did you think I meant by the following mention of "printed matter"? I'm praising the traditional form of books, articles, essays and the like on PAPER, yes, PRINTED PAPER. To take it further, DOWN WITH KINDLE!

Your hero may have been knowledgeable about muzzleloaders, but he doesn't share the wealth of that knowledge. He merely suggests loads to try and dubious loading and cleaning tips. And, at least in his writing, he gives one absolutely NO impression of being a "courtly old gentleman". He comes off like a big windbag, a know-it-all spouting off who at times seems like the kind of person that "people in the neighborhood I grew up in" would dismiss as a BIG DUPA" (capitalization of letters added for emphasis).

Finally, I can't let this statement of yours pass without comment: "For example, I can't imagine V.M. making cracks like KK made."

Are you insane or just "over the moon" in love with this man? The only "crack" I made about him was the aforementioned name that people I knew my whole life would label him as. You honestly can't imagine him referring to someone similarly, or worse? Especially someone who perhaps differed in opinion from him? Come on!

Look, V.M. Starr obviously did A LOT FOR muzzleloading AND WITH this form of shooting. For this he is to be, and has been, lauded. But I cannot for the life of me discern any direct sharing of his knowledge in his writing regarding A WAY TO GET GOOD PATTERNS FROM A CYLINDER BORED MUZZLELOADER which, by the way, was/is the impetus for this thread in the first place.

If I remember correctly, I believe the guy even extolls the virtues of jug-choking.

For all the accomplishments this man attained in his lifetime, good, concise writing was not one of them.

And I hope I'm wrong, but good reading comprehension seems not to be one of yours.

Calm down.

Best Regards, Krakow Kid, THE RECOGNIZED LORD AND MASTER OF ALL THINGS.

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I shoot a modern 12 gauge Pedersoli double ML which is choked IC and Light Mod. I use a .135 card wad over powder, 3/8" fibre wad, and a thin over shot wad made by slicing an over powder wad in to thirds with a razor blade. I honestly experience no problems getting everything past the chokes, and my theory is that the wads spring back to bore diameter once past the constriction. I get no blown patterns indicating blow-by, and the charge in the unfired barrel stays tight through several discharges of the other one. (I check the load for shifting when reloading the other barrel as a matter of course.) Patterns are nice and even, and dispersion is in keeping with the choke designations. Evidently I'm doing something wrong (or right).

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All of my muzzleloading shotguns are cyl. bored. There are NO chokes of and sort of description in them. Getting good patterns is not that hard, if you are willing to go to the range and pattern them. Remember, every gun and even every barrel on that gun, sets it's own rules, but after you have worked on patterning them, you will see some similarities. Many people,at least in my experience, try to get a more filled in pattern, by increasing their shot load. Maybe I am recoil shy, but I just never went that route. All of my shotguns range from 10ga. to 20ga. and it does seem as if the "usual" load of shot that is "store" bought for a modern gun, seems to be pretty close. Like a 12ga. uses 1 1/8oz. of shot and a 20ga. uses 7/8oz. of shot. It is the components that make the difference and of course the amount and F size of powder. I use nothing but 2F. For dove shooting and trap, I use an over powder card, a fiber cushion that is cut to 1/4" or less and over the shot an over shot card. The cushion for me, is only there to carry the olive oil I prefer to use for a lube. If I want tighter patterns and I won't be reloading very often if at all, like for turkey hunting. I use no cushion at all. My experience for me (may not be for you) is that holes in the pattern are caused be either the cushion blowing through the shot column or that the powder load is too stout and blowing components through the column. If you are worried about the strength of the load crunching bone, use a good solid tin can like a tuna can. Shoot at that at the furthest range you intend to take game and if it blows through both sides of the can, you have enough power for breaking bones. No, I can't get the range that a choked gun gets, but a turkey in front of me at 30yds. give or take, with my cyl. bored guns, has just experienced his last sunrise. This is all JMHO and information I gathered by spending time at the shooting bench and patterning board. Your mileage may vary..... wink

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Mr. Kid- You are correct that Mr. Starr extolled the virtues of the jug choke (he was apparently well-known for his ability to cut these into cylinder barrels). In fact he states that his method is meant for choked barrels, and I agree will not likely perform magic in a cylinder bore. Some shooters are experimenting with oiled cloth "shot cups" in cylinder bore guns and may be finding denser patterns with these; I am not sure about this but the oiled cloth does cut out any barrel leading for sure. My own results so far with an unchoked muzzleloader lead me to believe that a modest powder charge with a somewhat larger-in-volume shot charge will give best the results in a traditional cylinder bored muzzleloading shotgun.

Last edited by Golfswithwolves; 04/06/11 06:57 PM. Reason: oofda

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Mr Katt and Mr Golfswithwolves - I definitely agree with using less powder than shot (volume-wise). Do either of you, or anyone else for that matter, put a small hole in your overpowder cards? I've read that can cut down on blowing the shot's pattern apart, but haven't tried it. I'm not new to muzzleloading rifles, single and double, but relatively new to shotguns, even though I seem to have been accumulating original English doubles obsessively. I've still not gotten patterns to the point of satisfaction. I've been waiting for Spring (when it's REALLY here)to get more range time with all of them.

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