doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke and Muzzleloaders

A friend came home with a French 16 ga double barrel muzzleoader (c. 1860) the other day. It doesn't seem to have any choke but, in looking at it, I began to wonder if the concept of choke (I believe first patented by W.R. Pape in about 1866) was predicated on the widespread acceptance of breechloading in our firearms. From a practical standpoint, it might not be readily feasible to achieve a good gas seal if the wads have to be first jammed DOWN a constricted muzzle. Dunno.....

I totally agree Gil, chokes and muzzleloaders don�t mix. I�ve read that the old timers built the pattern either restricted or spread into the load.

Pape's original 'choke device' was a screw-on thing wasn't it?

Perfect for a front stuffing one shooter.

Black powder and tiny threads don't go too well together.

Skeptics about m/l chokes should look into V. M. Starr's little book, "The Muzzle Loading Shotgun, It's [sic] Care and Use". The book is reproduced on several websites.

Starr was a master of the jug choke. 85% patterns at 40 yards were not unheard of.

Jug-choked muzzle loading shotgun barrels are exceptionally easy to load because the choke's constriction is relative to the choke's recess. The only "shooting problems" that jug-choked barrels routinely have that I know about are that they very often do not group round ball loads consistently and that they do not always accomodate shot bandages and one-piece plastic wads well.

I think that treblig is referring to the old adage: "Much powder, little lead; shoots fast, much spead. Little powder, much lead; shoots far, kills dead." There is a lot to this adage, and not just with muzzle loaders.

I recommend that anyone who is even remotely interested in m/l shotguns look up a copy of V. M. Starr's book. The book contains a fair amount of good information and Starr's writing hearkens back to a time and a breed of men that are now (sadly) long gone.

It was Roper I was thinking of, not Pape.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=C7kAAAA...p;q&f=false

That gizmo there.

A long time ago, I machined an aluminum block that greatly facilitated the loading of a friend's ML shotgun with choke - a modern gun the brand of which I don't remember. The block was bored, based on this gun's measurements/dimensions, such that the block slipped over the barrels aand aligned bored chambers with the muzzles. The bored chambers were cyl tapering to the choke at muzzle. Thus, the wads were easily pushed into the muzzle and were correctly aligned with the bore. This gun shot well and kicked my butt two of three years in a ML Skeet competition. Not hard to do, but requires custom machining.

I tried, for a time, to construct some tighter shooting loads for my 16 ga. Manton, but never had much luck. I knew that I could do it with plastic shot cups, but just refused to use them in a m/l.

I sure would like to know the old-timers' secrets for this. I may try to locate Starr's book, myself.

SRH

In several vintage muzzleloaders I tried everything Starr said the results just left me wondering.

You might make this inquiry with the guys who regularly shoot trap and skeet with muzzleloaders in the NMLRA shoots. They certainly get decent performance there. I know some only use a card over blackpowder, then shot and a thin over shot card. Others use just a thin fiber wad over the powder or a card with half a fiber wad over the powder. All of this indicates considerable experimentation to determine the best load for a specific barrel. I learned a flintlock double 16ga sure makes skeet a whole new game. Have to know ALL about follow through!