doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need Information on Francotte

You've lost me Gerry.
Was this gun:
A. made in Belgium entirely by Auguste Francotte, Liege, thereby making it a legitimate and true Francotte SxS shotgun
B. made in Belgium by some other maker who used a set of Francotte manufactured barrels
C. made in Belgium by some other maker who put the name Francotte on the top of the barrels
D. none of the above

Not being nosy, I'd just like to learn what we really have here, and since you've offered it up, and we've all offered opinions, I think that's only fair. From your quote above, I can't tell what Bob Beach's conclusion really was, and I have the utmost respect for him and his opinion when it comes to AF guns. I guess I could call him, but I suspect others would like to know, too.

Thanks.

Geo...I noticed where he edited his post saying "it's not for sale".

I am not sure that this will ad anything of value but here is a partial photo of a Francotte ad from the early 1990's. You will note a certain similarity between this sideplate and the one on Gerry's gun. I don't think that there is a Francotte name on the sideplate.




Here is a closeup of the image.



I can imagine that in the later years that Francotte was in business, it was not making all of the parts for their guns in house but rather buying them from the trade. As has been pointed out, the barrels were likely made by Jean Falla. In fact, in the same advertisement as the above is a one page ad for the Francotte "SuperBritte". This would have been made from one of the (pre-WWII?) SuperBritte barreled actions that were owned by the Britte family. G&H eventually bought those remaining finished guns and barreled actions, SuperBritte's and side by side's, from the Britte family about 2003. A few of the barreled actions have been finished off for G&H by known and respected makers. In fact 20 or 30 years from now someone will probably be questioning the authenticity of one or two Arrieta's that have barrels of Siemen-Martin steel. But I digress.

I think that Francotte was making guns with whatever parts they could obtain and historically consistent markings (other than the proofs marks) were less important than selling an attractive gun from a maker with strong history. And then there are the creative errors of the engraver. The very first G&H Claremont shotguns (by Gamba) had the name "Broadway" engraved in gold on the sides of the action because the Italian engraver was shown a G&H Broadway which was built on the Browning B125 action and told to copy the engraving pattern. So he did, right down to the name.

The Francotte story, especially in recent years, needs to be told. And there are a few employees still around who could do that, but no one is working on it as far as I know.

Bob:
The lack of the Francotte name, in any form, on the sideplates of this gun doesn't bother me @ all.
The lack of a 'crown over AF' on the barrels, however, does send up a big red flag, @ least based on what little I've learned over the years. Granted, I haven't seen many 1970s vintage Francotte guns.
Thus, I'm trying to learn something here relative to guns from that era.
With that in mind, and based solely on the info and pics we've been given in this thread, where do you feel this gun falls in the 4 options labeled A.-D. I posted above?
Thanks.

My belief or guess is that the barrels were purchased from Falla for the Francotte action and were marked on the top of the barrels as Francotte and no one bothered to stamp the flats. Either Falla assumed francotte would mark them or Francotte assumed Falla would mark them. Obviously neither did. Again, this is just a guess. Bob, thanks for taking the time to follow through on all of this. I really appreciate your help and the help of everyone else. Hopefully I can help you in the future. The picture you posted is remarkable in the similarity right down to the cocking indicator.

It appears that by the 1970s Falla, etal., were long gone so the Auguste Francotte heirs may have had the tubeset lying around? They aren't chopper-lump, correct? Also any indication on the engraver, L. Smeet, R. Smeet, L. Corombelle, Philipe Grifnee- he could tell the tale. The gun screams quality, but without a copy of the ledger entry, I'd be hard pressed to buy it as a bonafide Francotte, which in the end really doesn't matter as I'd rather have the Poldi steel tubeset by Jean Falla and be iffy on the Francotte than a Francotte stamped with "Crown" over "AF" without the Poldi steel and any effort by the Falla boys. It all comes back to the firearms merchant vs. craftsman/mechanic. The small pools of craftsmen like Falla and others were the unsung heros upon which the firearms merchants like the heirs of Auguste Francotte depended. Falla was selling a tubeset while Francotte was retailing a finished product.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Can't find any signature on the engraving. The barrels are not Chopper Lump.

There are 2 patents
Jean Falla & Hubert Tellings - 1931 - for a method of soldering barrels
Jean Francois Falla - 1935 - For some type of chamber insert.

Pete

Nice find Peter. I had wondered to whom the hammer, similar to that of Roechling, belonged. Now I thought those chicken hawks were that of Joseph Cap. Was there a relationship between Cap & Falla? Also what is the Francotte brevete mentioned on the tops of the tubes; that of some tube to receiver knitting technique?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I do not know if there was any relationship between Cap and Falla. I do know that I have one of Falla's trademarks mistakenly attributed to CAP on my web page. Something I have to fix.

Without a patent number, who can tell?

I did pull the following information. Unfortunately Francotte patents were never registered here or in Germany that I can find. Online access to many early Belgium patents is non-existent. Francotte did register some patents in England. While not as complete as the US online patents are, the British online patents are better than most.

Charles Francotte

1 New or Improved Safety Device for Fire-arms with Pivotted Breech-blocks. GB190704736 Published 1907-04-25
2 Improvements in Martini-Francotte Rifles GB190611093 Published 1906-09-06
3* Improvement in Bolt Rifles. GB190611092 Published 1906-08-09
4 An Improvement in "Martini-Francotte" Firearms. GB190216583 Published 1902-09-11
5 A New or Improved Breech-block for "Martini" Firearms. GB190216582 Published 1902-08-28
6 Improvements in Breech-loading Small-arms. GB189800596 Published 1898-03-19
7 Improvements in Breech-loading Small-arms. GB189800251 Published 1898-02-26
8 Improvements in Cartridge and Cartridge-case Extractors for Breech-loading Fire-arms. GB189800076 Published 1898-02-05
9 Improvements in Repeating Pistols. GB189713345 Published 1897-08-21

Auguste Francotte

1* Improvement in Bolt Rifles. GB190611092 Published 1906-08-09
2 Improved Indicator for Breech Loading Firearms. GB189710082 Published 1897-09-18
3 Improvements in Single Trigger Mechanism for Double-barrelled Fire-arms. GB189709897 Published 1897-08-21

* Auguste and Charles shared this patent.

Pete