doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Questions

Hi there. I was just given a Sempert & Krieghoff drilling by my father in law. This is the first firearm I've owned so I don't have a lot experience with these sorts of things. After doing some research, I came across this forum and I'm hoping you all can help provide more background on the piece. It hasn't been used since pre - WWII.

The back story is fairly interesting. My wife's great-grandfather was General Malony in WWII. He commanded the 94th Infantry under Patton. The 94th was often referred to as "Patton's Golden Nugget". This gun was given to him as the surrender gift by his counterpart in the German Luftwaffe. I'm still researching who that was.

Here's what I'm hoping to learn.
- When was it made/proofed? (6/31?)
- What information can be gleaned from all the marks on the barrels?
- Is "Semper Supra" the model name?
- Is this a relatively common piece?
- Are there other places on the web or people who are good resources?

Much appreciated!

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Yes, passed thru the Suhl proofhouse in June 1931. Tube making effort by Heinrich Krieghoff with possibly the tube knitter being Wilhelm Kelber. I had attached a small probability of a script stamp of "LK" being attached to Ludwig Kreighoff, who expired in 1924 +/-. But this reveals that even Kreighoff sourced the best of the best, one of the Kelber boys. High quailty tube steel fastened to the receiver by one of the best, Wilhelm Kelber. Heinrich Krieghoff traveled to Liege, one of several gunmaking centers he visited, to learn the art of mechanized production of tubes. Nitro proofed more than likely a tight chambered 8X72(maybe Sauer - not 9.3X72R as Mike Ford called my hand and put me on the straight and narrow. Not sure on the name. I think you've stumbled on the best sight although GGCA( www.germanguns.com ) might provide some info, but it will be more than likely from Shotgun Charlie, or Axel E. who should be along shortly.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey!

Quick question for you. Is a "tube knitter" someone who joins the tubes?

The rifle barrel of your drilling was rifled by Wilhelm Kelber, who was a specialist barrel borer and rifler. His WK stamp is found on many rifle barrels on rifles by Sch�ler, Krieghoff, Sauer &Sohn and others. The proofmarks, 7.8mm bore diameter, 72mm case length, 12gramm bullet, clearly show it to be chambered for the 8x72 R. The photo shows such a cartridge besides a 9.3x72R, flanked by two tenpacks, front and back.
The 8x72R is often erroneously called a Sauer & Sohn cartridge, likely because of the tapered shape, similar to the 8x58R S&S. In fact it was the first cartridge developed by Wilhelm Brenneke, 1898. Brenneke either tried to improve the performance of the S&S number, or he tried to put the performance of the 8x57IR into a slimmer package, more suitable for the then standard slim drilling frames. The cartridge is out of print for half a century by now, so you have to rely on handloading. First, find a die set and 9.3x72R brass. Taper the cases down in the FL die. Load with "I", .318" diameter bullets. Use weak American level 8mm Mauser data.
The rifle barrel is made of steel by Krupp, the shot tubes of steel by R�chling.
In the 1920-30s Heinrich Krieghoff owned two separate companies, that is "Sempert & Krieghoff", making hunting arms, mostly drillings, and "Heinrich Krieghoff", machining parts like drilling frames for the trade and later making military arms like the famous "Krieghoff Lugers".
Note that the inscription on the frame does not read Sempert, but Semper Supra, Latin for "ever superior". Both words were used as trademarks by Krieghoff to this day, f.i. the once popular insert barrels to shoot .22 lr or magnum or Hornet cartridges from shot tubes were called "Semper" by Krieghoff in the 1960s.

Kuduae-

Much appreciated. This information is definitely helpful. As I mentioned, I don't have much experience in this world but I'm curious if there are people who could make "custom" 8x72R cartridges for my drilling? If so, any suggestions?

Also, based on the images I provided is the gun worth spending some $'s to have it properly cleaned and cared for?

Thanks!

Correct, the barrel knitter is the one who joins the tube set to the receiver and possibly may have assembled the tubes. Do note that the rifled tube is of Krupp steel while the scattergun tube were Roechling Elektro as pointed out by Axel.

Thanks Axel on the clearing the air on the 8x72 Sauer incorrect nomenclature. Mike Ford has penned an article on the 8x72 in on of the German Gun Collector's publications with the gist being:

"I load 8x72R without 8x72R dies. I size the 9.3x72R in 32-40 Win. file trim die, fireform in the rifle, then load with Lyman 8x57 dies set up above the shellholder enough that only the neck is sized. I remove the expander button, so the neck is not expanded to .323. I set the seater the same way. This procedure works like a charm, except the 9.3x72R case won't go all the way into 32-40 die ( .427vs.422). I have RCBS sizers for 8x60 and 8x60S, but neither sizes the 8x72R enough to hold the bullet ( the case neck is thinner than 8x60 neck. I think RCBS makes the dies for cases made from 30-06. I found the difference between Lyman and RCBS dies interesting." - per Mike Ford


Kind Regards,

Raimey

This is all so helpful! Much appreciated. I sent the gun to Keith Kearcher for a proper cleaning and going over. Looking forward to seeing his work. He may even make the custom rifle cartridges for me.

Also, I ordered a 1930 catalogue that Krieghoff happened to have. Since mine was proofed in 1931, there's a chance this model is in the catalogue. If so, I'll scan the page and include it in a follow up post.

Thanks again!

I received the 1930 Krieghoff catalogue a couple of days. Really interesting. Even though it's in German it's worth a look. Here is a scan of the pages that I believe are the same model (Semper) as mine.

Does anybody want to give the translation a go?

Enjoy.


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Quote: upolld00: Does anybody want to give the translation a go?

OK, I will give a try. I will try to keep as close as possible to the original words, so my translation may sound clumsy. But, the original text of 1930 is clumsy to a modern German too.
Krieghoff-Drilling SEMPER
Selfcocker with toplever closure; solid crossbolt, strong hingepin; double barrel lumps with two-bite underbolting. Lever-screws locked by counter-screws. Action body reinforced at the angle, sideclips. High rib, which enables quick, sure aiming. The locks are rebounding, that is, the strikers spring back into the frame after firing. Broken striker tips, or firing on closing the uncocked gun are avoided by these rebounding locks. Switching from shot to bullet by a slide on the wrist, bolted against involuntary sliding, connected to the automatic rear sight, 3 signal pins, safety on left side, blocking the triggers, straight-line strikers. Rifle-trigger with single-set, nice scroll engraving. Walnut stock with pistolgrip and cheekpiece, horn caps. Kaliber of shot- and rifle barrels upon request. The most often chosen rifle cartridges are 8x57IR, 8x72R, 7x57R and 9.3x72R. A good, extremely priceworthy using drilling ��Reichsmark 270.-

Krieghoff-Drilling Waldsch�tz =forest shooter
Same construction as "Semper", but with short, 55cm =22" barrels. These provide excellent carrying and handling qualities. The weight is low, shooting qualities not less than normal-length drillings. This small, reactive and excellently balanced drilling has handling qualities like a s/s shotgun, as it is not top-heavy like other drillings. It has quickly found many friends, especially among professional hunters. Weight in 16 & 8x57 about 6 (metric) pounds )= 3kg = 6.5 pounds avoirdupois), with light alloy 5 � pounds�..RM 270.-
"Patent" and "Neptun" may also be ordered with short barrels.
Options: Hand detachable locks, protected design �25.- // automatic rifle lock safety protected design �9.- // sear safety on shot locks�9.- // cartridge magazine with folding lid in butt�15.- // cartridge mag with wood cover under buttplate�10.- // two-part extractor�10.- // rifle barrel stainless Antinit steel�65.- // all 3 barrels Antinit�150.- // real buffalo horn trigger guard�12.- // good animal engraving, pickled gray�25.- // changing rear sight (see page 43)�5.- // ejectors�110.- // light alloy frame�30.- // scope mount�40.-
(on p.43) These drillings may also be delivered with safety on top and barrel selector on side, extra RM30.- // Ask for the leaflet "Short Drillings - pro and contra".

Interesting that for a fee all 3 tubes could be of Boehler Antinit steel; however, I don't see an option for Roechling. But then as Axel has always stressed, it was whatever the customer desired. The firearms merchant/maker would not say they didn't have it or couldn't get it. They would take the order and then get it from the fella down the road or stress their sourcing lines.

Robert Schrader of 8 Prinzenstrasse in Goettingen may have been the culprit for drillings with short rifle tubes down to 50cm. In 1902 under DRP 146285 he addressed the length. He was really big on coil springs and in 1901 under patent 128240 devised a safety lock with a cocking lever under the triggerguard bow. He either improved it or abandoned it. He must have been very successful in order to file the many patents under his name. He also had a poly choke device under DRP 88198 in 1896.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schrader's drillings employed a short rifle barrel under long shotgun barrels to save weight, while Krieghoff pioneered the use of short shotgun barrels too, similar to the contemporary ideas of Britain's Robert Churchill. All three barrels of the Krieghoff Waldsch�tz were only 22" long as standard configuration. There even was a special order, full stocked Krieghoff "Steingass" drilling with 20" barrels. It was named after a forester who first ordered such a thing.
Schrader's safety lock did not use coil springs, but long V-springs. It is essentially a spring-cocker, similar to the Beesley/Purdey sidelock in function of the spring. Schrader had most of the guns made to his design by the former Dreyse, then Rheinmetall factory in Soemmerda.

Both "Krupp Laufstahl" and "Roechling Elektro" were standard barrel steels, used interchangeably in production. "Boehler Antinit" was an expensive, highly alloyed stainless barrel steel, used only on special order at a premium price. Antinit barrels are easily spotted today: they more often than not appear nearly white. Stainless steel is hard to rust blue of course, and the resulting "black" quickly wears off.

Here is a low quality photo of such a Sempert-Krieghoff "Steingass" drilling in 16/8x57I, mounted with the original Zeiss Zielvier scope.

Indeed Robert Schrader Jagdwaffen did in fact use leaf springs in patent 180584 from 1906 and an image is found here:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=217327

I'll have to do some digging but if I am not mistaken his previous designs were centered around coil springs and the patents will tell the tale. DRP 137824 for the Schildzapfenverschluss of his may have been we he made the transition from coil to leaf. I think it was loosely based on U.S. of A. Patent 394,691 of 1888 by Elmore Adelbert Harris's hingpin design: http://www.google.com/patents?id=Z_5CAAA...p;q&f=false or some similar patent by Elmore Adelbert Harris.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here are a few more pages from the 1930 catalog with other drillings.

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Interesting Sempert & Krieghoff sidelock drilling for sale at Cabelas:



I'm really fond/a fan of the manner in which the adornment hides the sideframe reinforcement.








I wonder if the Schwertanker touchmark on the water table notes that Heinrich Krieghoff filed the frame himself?? Also I haven't conjured up in my mind what that additional filed slot in the left side of the well might be.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse