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#213132 - 01/13/11 06:57 PM Help IDing SxS garden gun
MikeV Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
I had posted this at the general discussion forum under help fing a source for 9mm shotshells.
I think it is more appropriate here.
I would like some help ID ing my German? SxS garden gun. It is .22 X 9mm shot.
It has 23 1/2 barrels. Side lever opening.

I have been trying to decipher the proof marks on the gun. There is no makers name.
I have never taken photos and posted them so I'll try to describe the marks. I will try to figure how to post photos later.

The receiver has a B with crown over it and a U with crown over it. I believe
this to be German proof used on an import gun?
All my attempts at describing are not 100% accurate. Old eyes and faint marks leave something to be desired.

The side of the rifle barrel has-
0.5 gr N GPm/7?
18 gr Bl.
The bottom of the rifle barrel has a
B G
U
All with crown over them.
It also has
53 ?/M
It also has what could be a makers mark but I can't really describe it. I'll have to try to make a photo.

The shot barrel has on the side-
0.2 gr N. G. P. m/71
18gr Bl.
The bottom of the shot barrel has
BG
U
all with crowns over.
8.8 T/r (maybe on the r)
9.18
811

The .22 is rifled.
I did a chamber cast of both. The shotshell case dia. is .399 and the length is approx. 1.5 " . The bore dia. is .336.
I was told that it was chambered for a .38 shot but that case is a little too small in dia.. It chambers and seats ok, just a little loose. I tried some CCI .38 shothells and they do work. The case splits at the mouth, as expected with undersized aluminum.
I do hope to find some 9mmm or someone who can suggest or help make some up. Probaly just wishful thinking on but my part but worth the try.
All in alll it is a pretty neat old firearm and is in good shape.
The .22 is surprising accurate for with the basic iron sites and my old eyes.


Any info and help is appreciated.
thank you all.
Mike

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#213138 - 01/13/11 07:21 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Proofed in the final state in Zella Mehlis in September(not August) 1918. Any pics of tubes? 8.8m/m is the pre-rifled tube diameter. Have you tried to chamber a 9mm Flobert? NGP M71 is Neues Gewehr Pulver(black) for the Model 71 rifle. This type proof was used on muzzleloaders yor weapons requiring a designed load.


Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213158 - 01/13/11 09:42 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Langenhan might have made or retailed it
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20langenhan%20friedrich%20gb.htm

Note similar proof stamps.

Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213169 - 01/14/11 05:49 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Riamey, Thank you.
I do have a correction on the marks. The rifle barrel is 1.8 not 18 gr.
The shot barrel is 6gr not 18.
One mistake due to old eyes and another to carelessness. Sorry.
I don't have any pics of the tubes. I am trying to get set up for that. I did, however, find some pics of one for sale that appears the same as mine except it is engraved and also that the rifle barrel reads .22 long rifle. At least I think so.I can barely make that out.
If you are interested here is the link:
http://www.wildwoodguns.com/cgi-bin/NEW/pages/results-final.cfm?tag=29P
Thanks again for your help.
Mike

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#213174 - 01/14/11 07:39 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Mike, according to your transcribing of the marks, both tubes were designed& proofed for a solid projectile, hence the" Crown"/"G". The reference you posted appears to be centered around the Henri Roux lever/lockup system& borders on being a poachers gun, although it doesn't fold in half.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213179 - 01/14/11 08:23 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Raimey,
Again, thank you. I too noticed the "Crown G" on the shot barrel and wondered. The barrel is definitely a smooth bore and appears to have some constriction at the bore. I suppose that it could have been bored out at some point?

I am working on making up some shotshells and will use it that way. I don't really expect to use the shot barrel very much but I do like to have my guns function.
The .22 barrel is surprisingly accurate.
I would like to figure out what the "shot " barrel was originally chambered if at all possible. Just for my own satisfaction , as I love the history of these fine olds arms.
Mike

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#213186 - 01/14/11 08:45 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Mike, I'd still guess that the 9mm tube was designed for some Flobert cartridge. I know that in Austria that Flobert tubes could forgo the preliminary test and be subject to the final proof, and I think the same was allowed in Germany. I shoot a 9mm Flobert a great deal. Where is the striker hitting the cartridge? Most of the early Floberts were paper w/ a metal base.

The diameter was 8.8mm so measure the diameter, directly or indirectly, and compare.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213223 - 01/14/11 12:45 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 241
As you succeeded in firing an .38Special shell in it, your shot barrel must be chambered for a centerfire cartridge. The various Flobert numbers are all rimfires! A .38 Special case hit on the rim by aFlobert firing pin would never ignite! From your description I think your gun is chambered for the 9.1x40R cartridge. Though COTW lists it under "European rifle cartridges", it was often used as a brass shot cartridge in such garden guns. It's centerfire case was reloadable, so it was deemed cheaper to use than the 9mm Flobert. Here it is, from the 1910 Stukenbrok mail order catalog:

#8254 was loaded with 15.5 gr blackpowder and lead bullet.
#8255 was a Schrot = shot load
#8256 are empty cases.
A rifle power round ball load was also commonly used in smoothbores. On another page a paper shot case is shown also. This also explains the crown/G stamp on the smooth barrel: As the rifle bullet load also could be shot from the smoothbore barrel, though with shortest-range accuracy only, it underwent proof for the rifle load. It was all a matter of gun laws: Up to about 1968 rifles chambered for the 6mm Flobert and smoothbores up to 9mm bores were regarded as toys and could be used without a licence. Well, many of those "6mm Floberts" came from the Zella-Mehlis shops with a generous chamber, others wer rechambered, so the .22lr was commonly used in them. Smooth bore single-shot pistols with barrels at least 8" long also were not regarded as firearms under the old gunlaws. In 9.1x40R, loaded with the case full of blackpowder and a round ball, these were accurate and powerfull enough out to 20m and a favourite of many poachers.
I have made 9.1x40R cases from 5.6x50R brass, but the .357 Maximum would probably be better: Shorten to 40mm, expand neck with an universal expander until it fits the chamber, wind the base in front of the rim with a .2" wide strip of tape until it centers in the chamber, fire form. Use black powder only!The "service" shot load is shown on your barrel: 7.7gr black powder and 277gr birdshot.

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#213262 - 01/14/11 05:29 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Nice find Axel and one nevers knows considering that some early guns were made to fire both pinfire & central-fire, who knows some craftsman may have developed a means to fire bother Flobert & central-fire? Interesting that the powder charge on the Nr. 8254 is 1 gram Schwarzpulver(black powder) in 1910.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213267 - 01/14/11 06:14 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: kuduae]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5973
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By: kuduae


#8254 was loaded with 15.5 gr blackpowder and lead bullet.
#8255 was a Schrot = shot load
#8256 are empty cases
...
Use black powder only!The "service" shot load is shown on your barrel: 7.7gr black powder and 277gr birdshot.


Now the load on the tube is 1/2 gram while the cartridge is loaded with 1 gram if I understand it correctly. Was this difference typical?

Kind Regards

Raimey

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