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#213132 - 01/13/11 06:57 PM Help IDing SxS garden gun
MikeV Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
I had posted this at the general discussion forum under help fing a source for 9mm shotshells.
I think it is more appropriate here.
I would like some help ID ing my German? SxS garden gun. It is .22 X 9mm shot.
It has 23 1/2 barrels. Side lever opening.

I have been trying to decipher the proof marks on the gun. There is no makers name.
I have never taken photos and posted them so I'll try to describe the marks. I will try to figure how to post photos later.

The receiver has a B with crown over it and a U with crown over it. I believe
this to be German proof used on an import gun?
All my attempts at describing are not 100% accurate. Old eyes and faint marks leave something to be desired.

The side of the rifle barrel has-
0.5 gr N GPm/7?
18 gr Bl.
The bottom of the rifle barrel has a
B G
U
All with crown over them.
It also has
53 ?/M
It also has what could be a makers mark but I can't really describe it. I'll have to try to make a photo.

The shot barrel has on the side-
0.2 gr N. G. P. m/71
18gr Bl.
The bottom of the shot barrel has
BG
U
all with crowns over.
8.8 T/r (maybe on the r)
9.18
811

The .22 is rifled.
I did a chamber cast of both. The shotshell case dia. is .399 and the length is approx. 1.5 " . The bore dia. is .336.
I was told that it was chambered for a .38 shot but that case is a little too small in dia.. It chambers and seats ok, just a little loose. I tried some CCI .38 shothells and they do work. The case splits at the mouth, as expected with undersized aluminum.
I do hope to find some 9mmm or someone who can suggest or help make some up. Probaly just wishful thinking on but my part but worth the try.
All in alll it is a pretty neat old firearm and is in good shape.
The .22 is surprising accurate for with the basic iron sites and my old eyes.


Any info and help is appreciated.
thank you all.
Mike

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#213138 - 01/13/11 07:21 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Proofed in the final state in Zella Mehlis in September(not August) 1918. Any pics of tubes? 8.8m/m is the pre-rifled tube diameter. Have you tried to chamber a 9mm Flobert? NGP M71 is Neues Gewehr Pulver(black) for the Model 71 rifle. This type proof was used on muzzleloaders yor weapons requiring a designed load.


Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213158 - 01/13/11 09:42 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Langenhan might have made or retailed it
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20langenhan%20friedrich%20gb.htm

Note similar proof stamps.

Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213169 - 01/14/11 05:49 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Riamey, Thank you.
I do have a correction on the marks. The rifle barrel is 1.8 not 18 gr.
The shot barrel is 6gr not 18.
One mistake due to old eyes and another to carelessness. Sorry.
I don't have any pics of the tubes. I am trying to get set up for that. I did, however, find some pics of one for sale that appears the same as mine except it is engraved and also that the rifle barrel reads .22 long rifle. At least I think so.I can barely make that out.
If you are interested here is the link:
http://www.wildwoodguns.com/cgi-bin/NEW/pages/results-final.cfm?tag=29P
Thanks again for your help.
Mike

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#213174 - 01/14/11 07:39 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Mike, according to your transcribing of the marks, both tubes were designed& proofed for a solid projectile, hence the" Crown"/"G". The reference you posted appears to be centered around the Henri Roux lever/lockup system& borders on being a poachers gun, although it doesn't fold in half.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213179 - 01/14/11 08:23 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Raimey,
Again, thank you. I too noticed the "Crown G" on the shot barrel and wondered. The barrel is definitely a smooth bore and appears to have some constriction at the bore. I suppose that it could have been bored out at some point?

I am working on making up some shotshells and will use it that way. I don't really expect to use the shot barrel very much but I do like to have my guns function.
The .22 barrel is surprisingly accurate.
I would like to figure out what the "shot " barrel was originally chambered if at all possible. Just for my own satisfaction , as I love the history of these fine olds arms.
Mike

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#213186 - 01/14/11 08:45 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Mike, I'd still guess that the 9mm tube was designed for some Flobert cartridge. I know that in Austria that Flobert tubes could forgo the preliminary test and be subject to the final proof, and I think the same was allowed in Germany. I shoot a 9mm Flobert a great deal. Where is the striker hitting the cartridge? Most of the early Floberts were paper w/ a metal base.

The diameter was 8.8mm so measure the diameter, directly or indirectly, and compare.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213223 - 01/14/11 12:45 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
As you succeeded in firing an .38Special shell in it, your shot barrel must be chambered for a centerfire cartridge. The various Flobert numbers are all rimfires! A .38 Special case hit on the rim by aFlobert firing pin would never ignite! From your description I think your gun is chambered for the 9.1x40R cartridge. Though COTW lists it under "European rifle cartridges", it was often used as a brass shot cartridge in such garden guns. It's centerfire case was reloadable, so it was deemed cheaper to use than the 9mm Flobert. Here it is, from the 1910 Stukenbrok mail order catalog:

#8254 was loaded with 15.5 gr blackpowder and lead bullet.
#8255 was a Schrot = shot load
#8256 are empty cases.
A rifle power round ball load was also commonly used in smoothbores. On another page a paper shot case is shown also. This also explains the crown/G stamp on the smooth barrel: As the rifle bullet load also could be shot from the smoothbore barrel, though with shortest-range accuracy only, it underwent proof for the rifle load. It was all a matter of gun laws: Up to about 1968 rifles chambered for the 6mm Flobert and smoothbores up to 9mm bores were regarded as toys and could be used without a licence. Well, many of those "6mm Floberts" came from the Zella-Mehlis shops with a generous chamber, others wer rechambered, so the .22lr was commonly used in them. Smooth bore single-shot pistols with barrels at least 8" long also were not regarded as firearms under the old gunlaws. In 9.1x40R, loaded with the case full of blackpowder and a round ball, these were accurate and powerfull enough out to 20m and a favourite of many poachers.
I have made 9.1x40R cases from 5.6x50R brass, but the .357 Maximum would probably be better: Shorten to 40mm, expand neck with an universal expander until it fits the chamber, wind the base in front of the rim with a .2" wide strip of tape until it centers in the chamber, fire form. Use black powder only!The "service" shot load is shown on your barrel: 7.7gr black powder and 277gr birdshot.

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#213262 - 01/14/11 05:29 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Nice find Axel and one nevers knows considering that some early guns were made to fire both pinfire & central-fire, who knows some craftsman may have developed a means to fire bother Flobert & central-fire? Interesting that the powder charge on the Nr. 8254 is 1 gram Schwarzpulver(black powder) in 1910.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213267 - 01/14/11 06:14 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: kuduae]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By: kuduae


#8254 was loaded with 15.5 gr blackpowder and lead bullet.
#8255 was a Schrot = shot load
#8256 are empty cases
...
Use black powder only!The "service" shot load is shown on your barrel: 7.7gr black powder and 277gr birdshot.


Now the load on the tube is 1/2 gram while the cartridge is loaded with 1 gram if I understand it correctly. Was this difference typical?

Kind Regards

Raimey

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#213298 - 01/15/11 04:44 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: ellenbr]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

Now the load on the tube is 1/2 gram while the cartridge is loaded with 1 gram if I understand it correctly. Was this difference typical?

Kind Regards

Raimey

A closer look at the proofmarks: It says 1/2 g blackpowder and 18g Bl, not BlG! This is the shot load, not the rifle bullet load of 1 g bp behind an about 9g = 150gr lead bullet shown in the catalog! (the bullet weight is from contemporary bullet catalogs) In the rifle load the case was filled to the bullet base with black powder, while the shot case contained powder, a small wad, shot and another wad.

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#213300 - 01/15/11 05:07 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: ellenbr]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Nice find Axel and one nevers knows considering that some early guns were made to fire both pinfire & central-fire, who knows some craftsman may have developed a means to fire bother Flobert & central-fire?

Such an interchangeability is impossible. Apart from the need for two firing pins, one for the center, the other hittng the rim, the chamber precludes interchangeability: The 9.1x40R had a base diameter of .401", so the .379" base of the .38 Sp family is a loose fit, but the bulged out fireformed cases work at bp pressures. The thin-walled 9mm Flobert rimfire case has a base of only .346"! This would be grossly undersized in a 9.1x40R chamber, resulting not only in split cases, but also in very questionable ignition. It would be about as likely as a rifle with two firing pins to use the .22 Hornet and the .22 Magnum rimfire interchangeably.

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#213301 - 01/15/11 05:36 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
There were number of Flobert 9 mm cartriges, but the chamber shape was complitely different from 9x40R shot&slug center fire cartriges.
First pic is Flobert cartriges

9x40R Center Fire cartriges


_________________________
Geno.

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#213304 - 01/15/11 07:31 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Axel, easy with those exclamation marks as I'm just an apprentice and a Southerner is allowed to ask a nieve question from time to time, isn't he? Once again you've succeeded in teaching me something, I think, and I applaud you for it.

Geno, nice effort on your part as you had it right all along.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213313 - 01/15/11 09:46 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: kuduae]
PeteM Offline
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4507
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: kuduae
It would be about as likely as a rifle with two firing pins to use the .22 Hornet and the .22 Magnum rimfire interchangeably.


Hmmm, I do remember such an arrangement for a firing pin. Just can't recall the gun at the moment....

Pete

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#213320 - 01/15/11 10:51 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Raimey, if I could get one! Pics are from municion.org

Pete, me too thinking I saw double firing pins before.
_________________________
Geno.

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#213337 - 01/15/11 01:53 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Many thanks to all of you.
Another board memeber has offerd me some 9.1X40 cases and i have some .357 max so I should be able to make something up based on all of the help and info you have provided.

As I was looking very closely at the breech face today I discovered that the shot tube was probably converted from rim to center fire. Close inspection reveals that a plug is in the breech where a rim fire pin would be. The barrel also has a small indention at the top for the rim fire. Just as the .22 barrel has.
This work appears very old.
I suppose one other theory could be that when the maker made the breech he provided for either rim or center fire. Any thoughts ? Have any of you seen or heard a conversion or a design to allow for both.

As I look at this it is not something that could be converted back and forth by a user. It seems to me that it would require skill and tools to do so.

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#213339 - 01/15/11 02:35 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Mike, snap an image, email it to me & I'll post it. I for one would really like to see the standing breech/strikers.

Kind Regards,
Raimey

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#213343 - 01/15/11 03:16 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
PeteM Offline
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4507
Loc: IL
Geno,

I found it. The Marlin Model 1892. Also Thompson Contender & NEF had or have that feature. I am sure there were others around.

Pete

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#213346 - 01/15/11 03:39 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
Raimey was right insofar as most of these garden guns were built for the 9mm Flobert rimfire. apparently this gun has been rechambered to 9.1x40R and converted from rim- to centerfire. Why? Please consider the proof date, September 1918. WW1 was still going on and civilian ammunition like the 9mm Flobert was largely unavailable. In this situation someone having some reloadable brass, a supply of primers and black powder was at a real advantage. My guess: Someone ordered this gun from one of the small Zella_Mehlis makers, who still had prewar parts in stock, but had it converted to centerfire and rechambered. As a boy, about 1908, my grandfather had a single barrel in 9.1x40R. The gun was either destroyed or liberated in 1945, but I still have the thong-type Berdan decapper and a brass bullet seater. He told me he reloaded his shot cartridges with crumbled newspaper for wadding, a pinch of blackpowder and some shot. He used it to shoot crows, magpies and other small pests around the premises.

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#213347 - 01/15/11 03:56 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
MikeV Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 40
Loc: midwest
Raimey and Kuduea,
Thanks to both of you!
Raimey, I'll get the camera out tomorrow and see if I can figure out how to do that.
Mike

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#213355 - 01/15/11 05:28 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: kuduae]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Originally Posted By: kuduae
Raimey was right insofar as most of these garden guns were built for the 9mm Flobert rimfire. apparently this gun has been rechambered to 9.1x40R and converted from rim- to centerfire. Why? Please consider the proof date, September 1918. WW1 was still going on and civilian ammunition like the 9mm Flobert was largely unavailable. In this situation someone having some reloadable brass, a supply of primers and black powder was at a real advantage. My guess: Someone ordered this gun from one of the small Zella_Mehlis makers, who still had prewar parts in stock, but had it converted to centerfire and rechambered.


My thoughts were the same. But there is one more, G under the crown means it was rifled barrel definetly. This barrel has been not only re-chambered, but overbored to smooth bore either.
_________________________
Geno.

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#213356 - 01/15/11 05:39 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Geno:
As far as I can tell, equating "Crown" over "G" with rifled is an old wives' tale. Crown over S notes proof with schrot/shot while Crown over G notes proof with a geschoss or solid projectile. For several proof steps, the Austrians used a solid projectile for both smooth bore & rifled tubes. Typically a solid projectile is associated with rifling but not always.

"In barrels designed to fire a single projectile-that is, rifled barrels-a soft lead cylinder is used as a projectile."
Wirnsberger page 39.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#213421 - 01/16/11 06:19 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
Raimey is right again, but why refer to Austrian proof rules?Here are the original German 1892 rules. If you can decypher the old German "Fraktur", you will note: Crown/S stands for a barrel intended for shot, while crown/G ia a barrel proofed for an "Einzelgeschoß" = bullet. Rifling is not mentioned here.






If you like and send a PM, I can email the original prooftables, containing all the gauge numbers, their diameter in mm and the bp sevice and proof loads.

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#213570 - 01/17/11 03:30 AM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: ellenbr]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Geno:
As far as I can tell, equating "Crown" over "G" with rifled is an old wives' tale. Crown over S notes proof with schrot/shot while Crown over G notes proof with a geschoss or solid projectile. For several proof steps, the Austrians used a solid projectile for both smooth bore & rifled tubes. Typically a solid projectile is associated with rifling but not always.

"In barrels designed to fire a single projectile-that is, rifled barrels-a soft lead cylinder is used as a projectile."
Wirnsberger page 39.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


I'd look at the photos. MikeV said probably rifle converted from rf to cf in this barrel and I guess as I told before this barrel been overbored to smooth bore.
I never saw factory made small caliber rifle with smooth bore and proof mark crown/G, all this smooth bore rifle been overdrilled.
_________________________
Geno.

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#213624 - 01/17/11 03:42 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: Geno]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
Originally Posted By: Geno
I'd look at the photos. MikeV said probably rifle converted from rf to cf in this barrel and I guess as I told before this barrel been overbored to smooth bore.
I never saw factory made small caliber rifle with smooth bore and proof mark crown/G, all this smooth bore rifle been overdrilled.

Geno, please reread my posts above. These garden guns were usually built to be free of licensing. This required a maximum rifled barrel in 6mm /.22" or a smothbore of 9mm maximum bore diameters. A 9mm rifled barrel required either a hunting licence to be even carried outside of approved shooting ranges. That's why these garden guns usually have a 6mm Flobert rifled barrel or/and a 9mm smooth one. Look at the proof rules above, 16b about the crown/G stamp: Rifling is not mentioned here, only barrels meant for a Einzelgeschoß = Bullet. Contemporary Busdorf in his book "Wilddieberei und Förstermorde" relates a murder case, to which key factors were two long, above the legal minimum of 20cm, single shot break-open target pistols, special ordered by a poacher and killer from Venus-Werke O.Will in Z-M, smoothbored and chambered for the 9.1x40R. Will had two of his standard offerings rebored smooth and converted to centerfire from .22 rimfire. The crook used it out to 20m with the case full of bp and a round ball. Must have been effective enough, because he killed not only roe deer and boars with these pistols, but a forester too.
MikeV mentions the proofmarks. at the time of proof the barrel was stamped 8.8 (mm) = .346" by the proofhouse, so a plug gauge of that diameter entered the barrel for 20cm, while a 8.9 = 350" one did not. This is a proper bore diameter for a 9.1x40R. "Overboring" such a barrel to remove the rifling would lead to a bore diameter of 9.1mm = .358". MikeV mentions a bore diameter of .336", perhaps a typo from .346, in any case much too small for a bored-out rifle barrel. As I wrote before, smooth barrels for the 9.1x40R were proofed for the bulleted cartridge with 1g bp and a 150gr lead bullet, as this load could be chambered and fired in them.

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#213626 - 01/17/11 03:57 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
BTW, here is the cut from a post-1900 O.Will catalog showing the pistol "Venus Mod. Nr. 500" mentioned by Busdorf. Note the caption "target- and hunting-pistols".

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#213696 - 01/17/11 09:00 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Very informative Axel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213800 - 01/18/11 03:08 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 242
I used to read the crown/G as "gezogen" = rifled too, but actually it stands for "Geschoss" = bullet.
Quote of a footnote from Lee Kennett's article Gun Proof in Germany, Gun Digest 1975, page 187:
"2 The proof law did not provide tables for shotguns and rifles as such, but for arms designed to fire shot and those made for solid projectiles. While this amounts to essentially the same thing, it does not preclude the possibility of a smoothbore being proved by table III and bearing the crowned G, if indeed it was actually designed to fire bullets. This was the case for some of the massive smoothbore doubles built for big game hunting in this period."


Edited by kuduae (01/18/11 03:14 PM)

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#213831 - 01/18/11 06:51 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
Buchsemann Offline
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Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 193
Loc: WI
Gentlemen,

Thank you for the very informative post/replies,

Buchseman

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#213834 - 01/18/11 07:09 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5978
Loc: North Alabama
Baumgarten:

It's about time you surfaced and joined our merry lot.

Kind Regards,

Raimey

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#213846 - 01/18/11 08:44 PM Re: Help IDing SxS garden gun [Re: MikeV]
Buchsemann Offline
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Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 193
Loc: WI
Raimey,

Actually I haven't had a whole lot to say lately.

You know the GGCA has had me working on a few catalog projects, there's that Brenneke thing I'm working on, a Vierling and a drilling to re-stock, a few scopes to mount on combo guns (w/ claw mounts), some 8X65R loads to work up, and I'm itching for things to warm up enough to chrono five new .308 Win loads for some long distance range work.

The later is kind of all the normal stuff to me so whenever you, Kuduae (Axel), and the others get into the research end of things I tune in to "get educated", hopefully with the proper libation in hand (tonight it's B&B - yum). It's all good stuff to me and very much appreciated as I know it takes time as well as a much admired dedication to the history of German/Austrian sporting arms; every once in a while jumping the borders to investigate other sourcing possibilities and such.

Thanks again (very much),

Buchseman

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