doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Help Requested to ID a Pre-War Drilling

Hello to all,

This is my first post here. My name is Chris and I am primarily an edged weapons collector. Anyway, I am writing to request assistance in identifying the maker and if possible the date of manufacture of this WWII bringback Drilling.

What research I have been able to conduct (mostly cobbled together from reading posts on this forum) seems to indicate it is chambered for 16 ga. and the 67/49 refers to the bore size of the rifle barrel (though as I understand it, this would translate to a .410 bore?), and that based on the proof marks it was likely made between 1891 and 1912.

The shotty barrels are etched with an anchor (superimposed over a letter) over an Imperial eagle around which is written "PRIMA WITTENER GEWEHR LAUF STUHL," which I understand translates to "prime Wittener rifle barrel steel." Underneath the eagle on the left barrel is written "MONOPOL" and underneath the eagle on the right barrel is written "DRILLING."

"MONOPOL DRILLING" is also engraved on the forend lever. Is this the manufacturer (I have searched but found nothing mentioning "MONOPOL")? Also, is there any significance to the anchor stamps? I ask as along with the Drilling was a naval officer's sword that dates to somewhere between the late-19th Century and WWI (pre-Weimar Republic)...

I have taken photographs of the proof marks and barrel etchings/stamps and am attaching them below (sized in accordance with forum rules). Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.

Rgds,

Chris

Action, barrels, & forend lever:










Proof marks:

Just as a quick glance, I think Monopol was registered to Auguste Francotte, so I'd look toward him as being the firearms merchant. I'd really like to see the stamp below the "67/49" stamp, which you have correct and that is the pre-rifling tube diameter. "S.S." might be for Sylvestr Schilling and possibly others. Any marks on the standing breech or near the forend hanger?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey,

Thank you for the quick reply and the information therein. To answer your question, there are no markings on the standing breech, though there are a couple small stamps on either side of the forend hanger I had not previously noticed. I have attached photos of these stamps for your consideration - there appears to be a "1" (?) stamped ahead of the forend hanger and what looks to be a "D"(?) and two dots on the aft-end of the hanger. If additional photos would help in your determination, please do not hesitate to ask.

Would the possible attribution to Sylvester Schilling and the Monopol mark help narrow down a date of manufacture? Thank you once again for your help...

Best Regards,

Chris

Chris:
Any edged weapons by H. Scherping have you? Can you describe the mark below the 67/49? "S.S." is seen quite often and my 1st guess was that the longarm was made in Zella-Mehlis, but that is just a guess: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post188811
On dreilings, many times the "D" appears next to the forend hanger while on doubles it is almost always on the forward part of the right flat if not on the lower rib. I think it notes parts or components being sourced from Brothers Decker or Brothers Denecke but I'll have to check the spelling. The initial and its location directs compenstation and liability.

We need a little Belgian info input to see if indeed the Monopole can be attributed to Auguste Francotte, but the "888" is quite low but may be an assembly number. For the moment I just don't know on the anchor. A similar stamp was used by Heinrich Krieghoff, but I don't think this one to be the case.
Wittener stahl came from the Berger & Co.(Cons. Berger/Rudolf Berger?) facility of Witten/Arnsberg but the steel stamp was a little different. Steel sourcing for tubes is quite interesting and apparently there were dealers for each steel maker in each individual gun making community. My 1st guess would be that the tubes were sourced Liege. Taker B�hler for instance, Carl Bittiner was the rep in Liege while F.A. Klett held Suhl's market share. So it is highly possible that each tube making center may have a slightly different steel type stamp. Proof testing adds additional cost and if the longarm was going to a client somewhere else than Germany, they may have forgone the special proof test or even the Nitro test post 1912, but a ZM proofed example will have a date stamp as well as a ledger number. But for now I'd guess it to date between 1891 & 1910. If you had a chamber cast the cartridge might, just might narrow the range.

There was some close association with Collath & Berger(Witten steel & Berger locks): http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post198557

Witten steel beginnings: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ludwig_Berger

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,

Thank you once again for your input and the wealth of information... No such luck with regards to having any Scherping-marked edged weapons. My German collection is rather quite thin, most items having been sold off some time ago to help pay for new acquisitions, and at present I only have 4-5 makers represented, e.g., WKC, (Robert) Klaas, (Anton)Wingen, Eickhorn, and D. Peres - all relatively common makers...

Regarding the anchors, the letter over which the anchor is superimposed differs on each barrel. On the right barrel it is a "Z." I am unable to decipher what the letter is under the anchor on the left barrel.

Regarding the mark underneath the "67/49," it lacks any discernible detail. It is circular in form, but I am unable to make out any definition within the circle, even with a 20x loupe (Maybe a light strike? Or a casting flaw?). There is however another "888," this one stamped into the rifle barrel.

I'm not sure what all is involved in having a chamber cast made - if it requires the work of a gun smith, the one local to me - as good as he may be - takes his time in completing any work (I am still awaiting the return of a sporterized Mauser I dropped off over a year ago).

Anyway, thank you once again, and I will look forward to any additional information you might be able to share with me regarding the identity of the manufacturer. If I can provide you with any additional photos - of the action or any of the markings - please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,

Chris

Isn't there an old metric rifle cartridge which has the same case dimensions as the 2" version of the .410? I believe it was once very popular in Switzerland and perhaps in other German-speaking areas.

Did I miss something--the third barrel IS rifled, is it not? Straight chamber, bottlenecked, or tapered?

Beautiful drilling, by the way! (I'D "liberate" that.....)

Hi Mike,

Thank you... And yessir, the third barrel is rifled. Eyeballing it, it looks as straight as any other rifled barrel I own. Would it be visibly apparent if it did taper, or would it require measurement with a caliper?

Cheers,

Chris

The mark below the bore diameter stamp looks to be a jagged circle and if there is an encircled "K", it might be the mark of Louis Kelber. Is there a steel type stamp on the rifled tube? I wouldn't assume it was Witten also. What is on the butt-plate?

One might narrow the date from 1894 to 1910 if the Monopol trademark is that of Auguste Francotte:
(forced translation) of site below:

"322 N 12th of the month of October 1894 to 11 o'clock in the morning several Auguste Francotte and C Street weapons manufacturers Mont Saint Martin in Liege occur at the Registry of the Commercial Court of Li�ge and deposit model in triplicate Brand Which MONOPOL below indicates several Auguste Francotte and C adopt state to be affixed on firearms and weapons parts in their manufacture as well as papers and packaging business This mark represents the word Monopol It applies to flat or embossed as well as in all characters It is used in the model dimensions and in other larger or smaller"




http://books.google.com/books?id=wloMAAA...pol&f=false

Trademarks 640-646 are some of Auguste Francotte's.

A chamber cast isn't that difficult. Either purchase some Cerrosafe or melt some wax from a candle. Put a paper towel or stop about 1 inch into the rifling and fill with wax, let cool and punch out from the business end.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Chris, I'm referring to just the chamber end of the barrel (where the ctg. goes). Generally speaking there are 3 types of ctg. body shapes: straight (cylindrical) tapered (tapered cylinder, from base to neck where bullet seats, naturally), and bottleneck where the back of the case is measurably wider than the bore and there are either two tapers with a shoulder radius connecting them, or a tapered or straight body connected to a straight neck by a radiused shoulder. That last type looks a little like a beer (or wine if you prefer) bottle and is called "bottle-necked". Yours could be any of the above; usually you can see the shoulder in a bottle-necked chamber, the others can only be differentiated by measurement or by eyeballing a cast of the chamber. Casts, as Raimey points out, aren't rocket science. Just be sure you use a material that releases from the chamber metal easily when it cools.

The cartridge which I mentioned above is called the 10.3x65R (the older thin-rimmed version) or 10.3x65R Baenziger (the newer thicker rimmed version). These are apparently rifle cartridges that are the same dimensions as the 2 1/2" (NOT 2") version of the present .410 shotgun shell. Which came first, shotgun or rifle, I do not know. But you might try fitting a 2 1/2" .410 shell into your chamber (DON'T cock those hammers) and if it is a fairly snug fit, then you might have a clue as to caliber. HOWEVER, you would still need to know which version of the 10.3 it is. And that makes a difference because if you make or find the wrong shell it either won't fit (Baenziger in thin-rim 10.3) or will have excessive headspace (thin-rim 10.3 in Baenziger chamber). Aren't old guns fun?????

If you aren't familiar with precision measurements, I'd get hold of a gunsmith who has the instruments and Cerro Safe for a chamber cast and have him tell you exactly what you've got (The gun looks to me as if it is worth doing this right). You will get the $$ back when you sell it by being able to tell the buyer exactly what they're getting (I think). If you want to ever shoot the gun, you will definitely need the services of a gunsmith to identify the rifle and shotgun chambering precisely and check for safety.

Have fun.

Mike Armstrong

The two 10.3x65R ctgs. are described in "Cartridges of the World," a book that is widely available in big box bookstores. You could probably go to Borders or Barnes and Noble and have a squint at the page for free. It's under "Metric Sporting Cartridges."

Francotte registered the trademark Monopole Oct, 12, 1894. Monopole translates to Monopoly.

This is from Littlegun


http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...chasse%20gb.htm

The Anchor is an anchor with the initials AF woven around it. It is also a Francotte trademark. Nothing to do with the sea or the navy.

Here is a Francotte Monopole sxs:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=208942970

I would place the gun between 1894 (when he registered the trade mark) and 1914. From 1914 to 1919 nothing was coming out of Liege, unless this can be traced a to high ranking German official.

Pete

Hello Raimey, Mike, and Pete...

First off, thank you all for your taking the time to respond to my thread and to post your research. Thank you Pete for jumping into the thread and for explaining the meaning of the anchor mark. What about the other anchor with the "Z?" Any ideas as to what this signifies? And what about the Imperial eagles (not the proof stamps, but the etchings on the shotty barrels)? Any idea as to whether this signified anything in particular?

Mike, man do I feel stupid! I looked right past the mention of the chamber in your question and was still hung up on the question regarding the rifling of the barrel. The chamber appears to bottleneck (maybe by 1mm) where the rifling begins. I now understand a bottlenecked chamber would indicate a necked-down cartridge that might narrow down the possibilities... Thank you as well for the wealth of information regarding cartridge possibilities. I am not far away from you - just down the coast in San Diego. Any gunsmiths in the area you would recommend?

Raimey, thank you once again for your exhaustive research. How did you find the Google book reference? I had search time and again on "Monopol" and Francotte but never found that link... I will take the casting into consideration. Regarding the rough circle stamp, there does appear to be a "K" to the naked eye, which dissolves into uneven textures under a loupe. However, I'm not certain I am seeing the "K." I'll take photos of both the mark and the rifle chamber tomorrow for your consideration.

Cheers,

Chris

I am not sure of the Z. The eagle was used by a dozen or more Liege makers in one form or another. Francotte used an eagle, but I have not seen like that on one of his guns.

There is a heavy German influence in Belgium during this period. They pressured the Belgians to increase their pressure standards when proofing a gun. The Germans took control of Pieper's factory once he died. They also took control of FN. During WW1 they used the FN factory to supply parts for their small arms. This period, 1892-1919 is known as the German School in Liege. ( Herstal, where FN is located, is just across the street from Liege. ) After WW1 this control came to an end.

Pete

Pete, I'll look at my books for 65mm bottlenecked ctgs. and see if I can give you some suggestions (away from books right now). No suggestions as to gunsmiths (had a less-than-satisfactory experience with a local recommended one recently) but maybe somebody will chime in or you might ask on the regular double shotgun BBS or the double rifle forum. There are several CA shooters who post on the shotgun forum and they might know. But you may have to ship that gun out of state for best service.

I will be getting down your way more in the future; my younger son just got orders for the Special Warfare Center in Coronado. He'll be there in May, so maybe we can get together after that.

Mike Armstrong

Chris:

Ah, after performing 1000s of Google searches one learns to throw out the obvious and try innovative combinations. But that will lead to permutations, which will get you closer to the desired result. Many times searching in another language helps, but keep in mind the books have to be scanned.

Here's an image of a jagged encircled "K" from a Robert Schlegelmilch bolt gun that was in Steven Dodd Hughes' shop:

]


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schlie Ben Sie in der Tat, aber berich tigen, Herr Apex-- translated from Deutsch this means: Close indeed, but not right, Mr. Apex-- You are correct with the first three words-- but your reading of Lauf Stuhl translates as "Run chair"- not quite kosher I might add- you may have mis-read the stampings, Rifle Steel auf Deutsch ist- FaBstahl--

If you are interested in European languages, Chris- as I am,. you might see the similarity between the German word for steel- Stahl- and the Russian term for the now deceased "Uncle Joe- Mar 1953 if memory serves here- Stalin means "Man of steel" in Russki! Da!!

I have two good friends from Germany who now live in WI- and are avid German and Austrian gun collectors- if you need further assistance--

Hello to All,

I apologize for the delay in responding. I am sick - a sudden onset of the flu or chest cold that has rendered me somewhat useless over the past couple days. As such, I am focusing on a quick and complete recovery and have been away from my computer more often than usual.

Just to quickly address some of the questions I have neglected to yet answer:

Raimey: After reviewing the photograph of the encircled "K," I am rather certain the mark on my Drilling is not the same. Not only does it lack the scalloped edging you show, but what I thought might be a "K" differs in appearance entirely.

I have also downloaded and reviewed the trademarks filed by Francotte in the book to which you provided a link. Thank you for the sam, as well as for the wealth of information you have shared.

Pete: Thank you for the brief explanation of German influences that were prevalent in Belgium at the time; the historical context surrounding Belgian gunsmithing at the time of this gun's manufacture helps explain much. I do think this belonged to someone of status, an Imperial German naval officer by the name of Scb�nemann.

Mike: Thank you once again for getting back to me regarding the recommendation of (or in this case, the absence of) an area gunsmith with whom you would feel enough confidence to recommend having any work done with the rifle. You mention you think it may be of enough value to make the extra effort to have everything done right. Would you be willing to expand on this? If forum R&R forbid discussion of value, maybe you can PM me with your thoughts?

Run With the Fox: Thank you for chiming in... You're right - I must have misread the etching. I would in fact be interested in speaking with your friends who are avid German gun collectors (or anyone here on the forum who might likewise be interested). As my area of interest is antique edged weapons, the time has come to sell this Drilling to free up acquisition capital for my primary area of interest.

Once again, thank you all... illness might keep me from replying as quickly as I would like, but I will be checking back on the thread over the next day or so.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris, all I mean is that it looks like a nice gun and deserves to be fixed up, assuming the cost isn't prohibitive. SOMEBODY here probably could give you a ballpark value, but I'm just not qualified or experienced enough in this area.

Regarding the chambering, there was apparently a whole family of 10.5mm rimmed bottlenecked target ctgs. popular in Germanic countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The most common was the 10.5x47R, but there were shorter and longer-cased versions based on the same rim/base diameter, a shorter or longer case body, same neck and same bullets. It has been my experience that if a ctg. was popular for target shooting, sooner or later it started to be chambered in hunting weapons like yours as well. In the US we have the example of the .32-40 "WCF" and the .38-55 "WCF" (not to mention the later 7mm-08 and others). In Germany the main example I'm aware of is the 8.15x46R, but I'm sure there are others. So I'd get a chamber cast and expect to find some variant of the 10.5mm. But that's just a half-assed guess....

Hope you feel better soon.

Mike Armstrong

You are welcome- my "Hauptbusenmachter Fruend" in the WI area- they know German and Austrian (osterreich) weaponry and may have an interest in buying your fine weapon- that of course, is up to them- PS- I just posted their e-mails for you- see reply post!

If you like edged European weapons, the name Frank comes from the older Prussian term for "the point of a spear or lance" Und- Auf Weiderschoen!! (the W is pronounced as a V ) FYI!!

Chris, if that is the case, then you can extend the possible date to 1918 or so. We have seen examples of guns made for high ranking officers during the occupation.

All the best with restoring this beauty.

Pete

Chris- here are two contacts for you- both men specialize in German and Austria and European (Not British however) weapons-- Arnold Mueller- e-mail at muellera@chartermi.net and Michael Schwandt- e-mail at schwandt2@charter.net-- Be sure to let us know what progress you are making in correctly identifying this very fine looking firearm--

Have you noticed that the word "Monopol" is also incorporated into the Witten steel trademark? "Monopol" was then also a "Trademark" for a better-quality barrel steel by that company. There are no other markings that hint to Belgium. Trademarks were not internationally protected as they are now. Often lesser makers used marks that intentionally resembled those of "name" competitors. Note also the "3 rings", resembling the Krupp trademark! There is no need to speculate about a Liege/Francotte connection! "Monopol", as well as "Ideal", "Triumph" and other such euphemistic expressions, were used by many makers and dealers for many different products then. FI I remember cigars named "Monopol", and I know about half a dozen entirely different gun actions called "Ideal" by their hopeful inventors or dealers. IMHO the illegible letter under the anchor stands for the maker, while the Z stands for Zella. The neighbouring towns Zella and Mehlis were only amalgamated to Z-M in the 1920s.
The Gusstahlfabrik (cast steel factory) Carl Berger&Co, later Gusstahlwerk Witten AG, then led by Carl's son Louis Constans Berger, in the 1860s pioneered the use of barrel steel. Besides providing the steel for the Dreyse needlerifles of the Franco-German war of 1870-71, they exported lots of barrel steel to the USA in the early 1870s. Among these exports were large amounts of special-order, large diameter round stock. Their main American customer was Colt in Hartford. So your "all American" Colt Peacemaker most likely has a barrel and cylinder made of Witten steel!
This Drilling was almost certainly made in Zella-Mehlis, evidenced by the finer underlever details, before 1911. In 1911 the Z-M proofhouse made the change from the old-fashioned gauge numbers to tenths of millimeters. So we can narrow down the dating from April 1, 1893, when the 1891 prooflaw came to force, and 1911. According to the German 1891 proof tables the gauge number 67,49 stands for a plug gauge of 10.41mm = .410" diameter that would pass the barrel. The next larger number, 62,78 = 10.67mm = .420" did not pass the barrel at the proofhouse then. These numbers, as the later mm numbers, stand for the bore or land diameter, not for the groove/bullet one! You have to add the depth of the grooves to get to the bullet diameter. Without a chamber cast determining the chambering is impossible. The 11.15x65R aka 11mm Drillingspatrone was only one of the series of LK cartridges, all based on the brass 36 gauge/.410 case. These once came in lengths of 40, 50, 52, 55 and 60 mm besides the already mentioned 65mm. But in the 1890s there were as many varieties as in Heinz Mixed Pickles, as apparently every country gunsmith on opening his own shop first designed his own proprietary rifle cartridge.

Why would a German maker use the French word for monopoly?
The trademarks were protected. They were protected under the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property of March 20, 1883.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Conve...racting_parties

The Patent Laws of All Nations: United States, C. R. Brodix, 1886
Article VIII. A trade-name shall be protected in all the countries of the Union, without the necessity of registration, whether it form part or not of a trade or commercial mark.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2JcLAAA...883&f=false

Pete

Sorry, but "Monopol" is the German spelling for monopoly. A French may spell it "monopol", but more often they spell it "monopole", as it is on the gun shown: "Monopole-Liege"!

"Monopol" is even the name of a German magazine. BTW the same spelling is also used in Slovenian language. The origin is Greek, from monos and polein.
With kind regards,
Jani

If you care for googling "Marke Monopol", German for "monopoly trademark", you will get about 290 000 results. "Monopol" stands for a long established line of household tools, probably as old as that Drilling, a tobacco company equally old, a razor/cutlery trademark from Solingen, a jeans company and so on. There also was a coalmine named "Zeche Monopol", founded 1891, in Bergkamen, near Witten. Trademarks were only protected for a specified group of products, so one company may use it for household items, the next for razors, another for tobaccos and so on. So, even if Francotte registered "Monopole-Liege" some time, as spelled in French on the gun, other gunmakers were free to use "Monopol Drilling" on their guns. Even if one gunmaker had protected Monopol for his guns, the Witten steelworks still could register it for some sort of steel. It may even have been the other way around: As "Monopol" already was a popular German trademark at that time, Francotte quickly registered "Monopole-Liege"in Belgium to get an advantage in the German market.
And, even if Francotte (btw, which one? There were 7 gunmakers of that name in Liege!) registered "Monopol" in Belgium, it was left to the courts if this registration had any priorority and was valid in Germany. Apparently all companies using "Monopol" shied away from lawsuits for good reason.

Axel:
I was curious when you were going to surface with your expertise. Maybe your Monopol stogies were made in Liege by Auguste Francotte??? I'll take credit for the rabbit chase of Monopol for Auguste Francotte, because Belgian makers registered trademarks while the German makers did not. Now on the Monopol drilling I do not see the "Monopole" spelling, which is found on the top rib of a Belgian double. During the 1890s there were many gunmaking partnerships such as H. Pieper/Sauer, H. Leue & Greener, etc. I would like to see if Witten registered the Monopol trademark and the sourcing lines converge and become blurred. I wouldn't assume that all 3 tubes were of Witten steel and it is odd that there isn't some type of steel stamp recipe on the underside of the tubes. Pour it on Axel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to mention that some Zella-Mehlis examples were proofed as early as 1901 and possibly earlier. Wes' February 1911(ZM proof rules - September 1911) proofed drilling below as a script "E" in the same position of the "T" on the Monopol but also wears the appropiate "Crown" over "N".





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey, Axel, Pete, et al...

I'm still trying to get over this �berflu, and more-or-less still feel as if I've been run over by a freight train. As such, I am limiting the time I spend at my desk in front of my computer.

Thank you once and all for your continued input.

So Axel, by your best estimation, to whom might you attribute the manufacture of this Drilling? Or is it premature to speculate as to the identity of the manufacturer? Am I correct in understanding the consensus is shifting away somewhat from an attribution to Francotte and Liege? Pete, I would appreciate your thoughts as well... Raimey, thank you for your continued input... this has been one heck of a learning experience for me.

Also, Run With the Fox - thank you for passing on the contact information of your friends. I would only ask you please tell me your name as well as I can say, "So-and-so suggested I write you," and thank you in advance for the same.

Cheers,

Chris

I've gazed at the Witten steel stamp for some time and it appears that the term "Monopol" on the left tube is to be coupled with the term "Drilling" on the right tube and notes the model or a trademark, having little relationship with the steel type. I've seen single "T" stamps on tubes similar to the frame stamp and one guess for the mechanic would be Fritz Triebel of Zella Sankt Blasii. But as usual there are others like K. Terling of Zella-Mehlis as well as Fritz Thomas. The overall effort is a combination of individual efforts by the S.S. craftsman who may have performed the tube work and also was a barrel knitter with the T mechanic was an action guy. And this doesn't even begin to include a stab at the stock maker.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

-- Yes, but monopol/ monopole-- George/Georges. Just like our "pals' the Limeys- viz: honor/honour, color/colour) the Frogs like to add extra letters as well. Monopol is the word in German for a Monopoly, and it was in use long before either the "Robber Barons", Teddy R and the "Trust Busters" or even Parker brothers (NOT the gun boys in Meriden Conn) developed the board game in the mid-1930's--

Indeed, why would any German company want to have anything to do with anything French- those two countries have been at each other's throats (and most likely, groins as well) for centuries--To compare any weapon made in France, except possibly the Georges (damn extra "s" again) Granger doubles and those damn Darnes that don't tolerate reloads well- with the precision, skill of assembly and overall quality of a German or Austrian made firearm--

WW1 and later WW11 (when Herr Adolph decided to pay the Frogs back for their harsh reparations that bankrupted Germany in the post WW1 years)- compare the French military weapons with those of the German forces- no comparison at all. And what a numbnutted idea was the Maginot line- built to prevent another invasion of French soil by the feared "Hun"- with fixed gun positions facing East towards the expected line of attacking forces--so the German Wehrmacht sappers and engineers went behind the cement bunkers and blew them to shreds with explosives--

Now the Belgies- sure, good FN at Liege- so good that capturing that vast manufacturing complex was a high priority for the Germans- invading Holland gave them another area of access to the North sea, and windmills and wooden shoes up the ying-yang- but no strategic arms plants in Holland--

Another reason possibly that the French and their overall lack of morals, solid government and good hygiene would be looked down on with contempt by neighboring European countries can be expressed in a short couplet- I still have the translation into French, from a lady friend who was a language major at Oberlin and studied at the Sorbonne for two summer vacation period while at that college in Northern Ohio- goes about like this: Le Francais, ils sont une course la plus curieuse, ils combattent avec leurs pieds, et font l'amour avec le visage!!

Here is another example of the same trademark "Nimrod" used by two different companies at the same time:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206958#Post206958

Any Goths are there to crack the code on the name & location?


jagged encircled K - twice & SS(Str. Schilling) on all tubes


Similar/same Prima Wittener Gewehr Lauf Universal Drilling stamp as above. If memory serves me correctly, Universal points to ole Auguste Francotte


I've attempted to crack the code on the German and Austro-Hungarian patent numbers for the selector that are visible, but no joy even with the other chicken scratching and Roman Numerals. If it is from Z-M, odd that the word Patent is in the mix.


I would ask for additional images but my password does not work on the filthy foreigner site so no other images just yet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

raimey, SS = Schiller Forge?

"Fixed fortifications, monuments to man's stupidity", George S. Patton...(I believe, may be paraphrased).

For sale: French surplus military rifle. Dropped twice, never fired.

Nah, compensation & liability would have been to an individual not an entity, Schilling Schmiede.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ahhh...ok, thank you.

The Drilling was made by Paul Wehlke from Lauban.
See here in Address Book from 1910:

http://adressbuecher.genealogy.net/entry/show/753794

Kind Regards,
Gunwolf

Gunwolf, is the following anything similar - I may have some misspelled words:

Gebrauchsmuster - D.R.G.M. 219051 -Sichernde Umstellvorrichtung am Selbstspanner Dreil�ufer, dessen am Ende der Schlo�stangen angelenkte federnde Sicherheitshafen der Sicherungsschieber mit zwei feitlichen Anf��en auf dem Abzugsblech abwechselnd bet�tigt. Friedrich Wagner in Suhl - 25.1.04 _ W 15883

Paul Wehlke at Naumburger Strasse 23, Luban, Poland, almost on the border, most interesting.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not Friedrich Wagner but Jacob R�hmer in Suhl - DRP Nr. 72583. I recall that Axel may have posted that:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post294590

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post233908

Deutschland Nr. 72583
GM 16378
Belgien 106297

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, this is different from the R�hmer Patent! It describes a combined Selector/Safety on the trigger plate�.

Luban, now Poland former Lauban in the german state of Silesia. BTW, Silesia was one of the best german hunting grounds for small game as Hare and Partridge in those days with bags of thousands of Hare or birds a day�! So I never would underestimate a gun made in Silesia� ;-)

The only misspelled word I see is "feitlichen", which should be "seitlichen". The Fraktur "f" and "s" are hard to distinguish.

Bill

Thanks Bill for any & all.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey, (& others)

this may have been answered before here - if so, I apologise.

the word 'Monopol' in german usage indicates that someone/a company
has the SOLE rights of manufacturing or selling a particular product/item (or perhaps a certain manufacturing process)

Best regards
Gunter