doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Help Requested to ID a Pre-War Drilling

Hello Raimey, Mike, and Pete...

First off, thank you all for your taking the time to respond to my thread and to post your research. Thank you Pete for jumping into the thread and for explaining the meaning of the anchor mark. What about the other anchor with the "Z?" Any ideas as to what this signifies? And what about the Imperial eagles (not the proof stamps, but the etchings on the shotty barrels)? Any idea as to whether this signified anything in particular?

Mike, man do I feel stupid! I looked right past the mention of the chamber in your question and was still hung up on the question regarding the rifling of the barrel. The chamber appears to bottleneck (maybe by 1mm) where the rifling begins. I now understand a bottlenecked chamber would indicate a necked-down cartridge that might narrow down the possibilities... Thank you as well for the wealth of information regarding cartridge possibilities. I am not far away from you - just down the coast in San Diego. Any gunsmiths in the area you would recommend?

Raimey, thank you once again for your exhaustive research. How did you find the Google book reference? I had search time and again on "Monopol" and Francotte but never found that link... I will take the casting into consideration. Regarding the rough circle stamp, there does appear to be a "K" to the naked eye, which dissolves into uneven textures under a loupe. However, I'm not certain I am seeing the "K." I'll take photos of both the mark and the rifle chamber tomorrow for your consideration.

Cheers,

Chris

I am not sure of the Z. The eagle was used by a dozen or more Liege makers in one form or another. Francotte used an eagle, but I have not seen like that on one of his guns.

There is a heavy German influence in Belgium during this period. They pressured the Belgians to increase their pressure standards when proofing a gun. The Germans took control of Pieper's factory once he died. They also took control of FN. During WW1 they used the FN factory to supply parts for their small arms. This period, 1892-1919 is known as the German School in Liege. ( Herstal, where FN is located, is just across the street from Liege. ) After WW1 this control came to an end.

Pete

Pete, I'll look at my books for 65mm bottlenecked ctgs. and see if I can give you some suggestions (away from books right now). No suggestions as to gunsmiths (had a less-than-satisfactory experience with a local recommended one recently) but maybe somebody will chime in or you might ask on the regular double shotgun BBS or the double rifle forum. There are several CA shooters who post on the shotgun forum and they might know. But you may have to ship that gun out of state for best service.

I will be getting down your way more in the future; my younger son just got orders for the Special Warfare Center in Coronado. He'll be there in May, so maybe we can get together after that.

Mike Armstrong

Chris:

Ah, after performing 1000s of Google searches one learns to throw out the obvious and try innovative combinations. But that will lead to permutations, which will get you closer to the desired result. Many times searching in another language helps, but keep in mind the books have to be scanned.

Here's an image of a jagged encircled "K" from a Robert Schlegelmilch bolt gun that was in Steven Dodd Hughes' shop:

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Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schlie Ben Sie in der Tat, aber berich tigen, Herr Apex-- translated from Deutsch this means: Close indeed, but not right, Mr. Apex-- You are correct with the first three words-- but your reading of Lauf Stuhl translates as "Run chair"- not quite kosher I might add- you may have mis-read the stampings, Rifle Steel auf Deutsch ist- FaBstahl--

If you are interested in European languages, Chris- as I am,. you might see the similarity between the German word for steel- Stahl- and the Russian term for the now deceased "Uncle Joe- Mar 1953 if memory serves here- Stalin means "Man of steel" in Russki! Da!!

I have two good friends from Germany who now live in WI- and are avid German and Austrian gun collectors- if you need further assistance--

Hello to All,

I apologize for the delay in responding. I am sick - a sudden onset of the flu or chest cold that has rendered me somewhat useless over the past couple days. As such, I am focusing on a quick and complete recovery and have been away from my computer more often than usual.

Just to quickly address some of the questions I have neglected to yet answer:

Raimey: After reviewing the photograph of the encircled "K," I am rather certain the mark on my Drilling is not the same. Not only does it lack the scalloped edging you show, but what I thought might be a "K" differs in appearance entirely.

I have also downloaded and reviewed the trademarks filed by Francotte in the book to which you provided a link. Thank you for the sam, as well as for the wealth of information you have shared.

Pete: Thank you for the brief explanation of German influences that were prevalent in Belgium at the time; the historical context surrounding Belgian gunsmithing at the time of this gun's manufacture helps explain much. I do think this belonged to someone of status, an Imperial German naval officer by the name of Scb�nemann.

Mike: Thank you once again for getting back to me regarding the recommendation of (or in this case, the absence of) an area gunsmith with whom you would feel enough confidence to recommend having any work done with the rifle. You mention you think it may be of enough value to make the extra effort to have everything done right. Would you be willing to expand on this? If forum R&R forbid discussion of value, maybe you can PM me with your thoughts?

Run With the Fox: Thank you for chiming in... You're right - I must have misread the etching. I would in fact be interested in speaking with your friends who are avid German gun collectors (or anyone here on the forum who might likewise be interested). As my area of interest is antique edged weapons, the time has come to sell this Drilling to free up acquisition capital for my primary area of interest.

Once again, thank you all... illness might keep me from replying as quickly as I would like, but I will be checking back on the thread over the next day or so.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris, all I mean is that it looks like a nice gun and deserves to be fixed up, assuming the cost isn't prohibitive. SOMEBODY here probably could give you a ballpark value, but I'm just not qualified or experienced enough in this area.

Regarding the chambering, there was apparently a whole family of 10.5mm rimmed bottlenecked target ctgs. popular in Germanic countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The most common was the 10.5x47R, but there were shorter and longer-cased versions based on the same rim/base diameter, a shorter or longer case body, same neck and same bullets. It has been my experience that if a ctg. was popular for target shooting, sooner or later it started to be chambered in hunting weapons like yours as well. In the US we have the example of the .32-40 "WCF" and the .38-55 "WCF" (not to mention the later 7mm-08 and others). In Germany the main example I'm aware of is the 8.15x46R, but I'm sure there are others. So I'd get a chamber cast and expect to find some variant of the 10.5mm. But that's just a half-assed guess....

Hope you feel better soon.

Mike Armstrong

You are welcome- my "Hauptbusenmachter Fruend" in the WI area- they know German and Austrian (osterreich) weaponry and may have an interest in buying your fine weapon- that of course, is up to them- PS- I just posted their e-mails for you- see reply post!

If you like edged European weapons, the name Frank comes from the older Prussian term for "the point of a spear or lance" Und- Auf Weiderschoen!! (the W is pronounced as a V ) FYI!!

Chris, if that is the case, then you can extend the possible date to 1918 or so. We have seen examples of guns made for high ranking officers during the occupation.

All the best with restoring this beauty.

Pete

Chris- here are two contacts for you- both men specialize in German and Austria and European (Not British however) weapons-- Arnold Mueller- e-mail at muellera@chartermi.net and Michael Schwandt- e-mail at schwandt2@charter.net-- Be sure to let us know what progress you are making in correctly identifying this very fine looking firearm--