doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fire Storm loads by Federal

I know this is a forum of folks mostly dedicated to shooting light loads out of your doubles, but at the risk of a tongue lashing I have a question. Federal makes the PF154FS load, 1 1/4 oz. of a mixture of copper plated shot (I know, it's not really plated) and nickel plated shot in 4,5 and 6 shot sizes. It leaves at a screaming 1500 fps. Loaded with Federal's FliteStopper wad, which is touted for it's ability to hold tight patterns at long range, would this not be the ultimate heavy long range lead load, without going over 1 1/4 oz.?

I have a tough old 32" double that is choked tight 'n tighter that rides with me on the farm everyday for potshots at crows and other vermin. For an occasional extreme long range shot, might this be the ultimate load?

Anyone tested them?

Stan

Not for me. First, I have to define a few terms such as "extreme long range" and then "ultimate load," while taking into account the game.

For me, 50 yds on a crow is "longish", and 70 yds on anything from clay targets to vermin (crows, starlings, pigeons) is extreme. I wouldn't shoot at a pheasant beyond 50 yds unless it was already wounded.

IMO, for a hunting load to be the "ultimate" it would have to surpass the next best thing by a significant margin. And by surpass, I mean it would have to exceed the effective range of the next best thing. The maximum effective range will be limited by 1) the pattern density of 2) pellets of adequate energy. I know 1 & 1/4 ounce of #5 shot at 1220 fps ( the std 3 1/4 DE) thru a full choke to be adequate to kill a crow at 70 yd (if it can be hit). For all i know, it may be adequate at ranges beyond that.

So, given adequate density and energy of 1 1/4 oz, 3 1/4 DE (3 3/4 is readily available) I don't see how increasing the MV to 1500 fps would help me kill more crows at 70yd.

Why do you suppose it might be the ultimate?

Stan:
You don't specify what type of "tough old 32" double" you have. Hopefully it's something not worth too much if you're going to run these apocalyptic loads through it.

On the other hand, I'd have a mobile phone handy. You'll need to call 911 if you try them. Medical attention may be required.

Best, Kensal

I have not patterned that exact load, but I did pattern Federal's 1500 fps load of 1 1/4 oz 6's. Compared it to two other 1 1/4 oz 6 shot loads: one was 3 1/4 DE (nominal 1220fps), the other 3 3/4 DE (nominal 1330 fps). Pattern percentages were in reverse order. The 1220 fps load patterned about 5% better than the 1330 fps load, which patterned about 8% better than the 1500 fps load. Even that ultrafast load, however, was around 70% at 40 yards. (Shot through a full choke.) I did find fewer pellets (about 30) in the 1500 fps load than in the other two, which is also going to hurt at long range. Personally, I'd want to do a pellet count and pattern that very fast load against, say, a conventional (1220 fps or 1330 fps) 1 1/4 oz load of 5's and see how they both look.

mike, I was curious about the FliteStopper wad, and the plated shot I guess. I would really like to be able to knock a crow out of a tree at 70 or 80 yards with the old Montgomery Ward (Stevens) 12 gauge. I paid $255 for it, and it is perfectly regulated. Just what I need in a "truck gun". I have heard some really good reports on the steel duck loads Federal markets with the FliteStopper wad, and hope it will do the same for the lead loads. They load their REALLY heavy turkey loads with this wad, but you won't catch me using a 1 3/4 oz. load in my doubles, even the old MW. Some are prolly wondering why I don't just use a rifle. Well, I did use my 22 magnum and 220 Swift for a long time, but, crows learn fast. They know that when my truck stops they had better fly out of the trees pronto, and they do.

I wondered too, Larry, that the 1500 fps may be counter-productive. But, possibly the FS wad over-rides the blown pattern problem we sometimes see with high velocity loads. That's the reason I was wondering if anyone had patterned any of them at long range. I'd definitely be using the 4's if I were trying to kill a crow at extreme range. We shoot crows every fall, when pecans and peanuts are ready for harvest (crows love them both), and I routinely use sixes. My two crow killing buddies use fours. We all use Xtra-full tubes, and I have witnessed crow kills at 80 yards with fours and a 3 3/4-1 1/4 load. I was just thinking that with the "special" wad and the plated shot, it might be even more of a long range load.

I e-mailed Federal last night and asked them what was the tightest constriction they would recommend for that load.

Thanks, Stan

There ya go! Killing crows with a shotgun at 80 yds is stuff I like to hear and see! But my point still is....does that load let you down at 100 yds? and will the new load with 20% more recoil do better?

I like hearing about experiences pushing the envelope. Be sure to post back if you try them this season.

mike,

We have never really taken any shots much beyond 80 yds., and that is with a Beretta 390 with tubes. I'd really like to test a few of these loads in my old MW double. It is a much better truck gun than a jammamatic, because I can keep a crow load in the right barrel and a load of No. 4 Buck in the left for coyotes. I may order a box and see. Sure wouldn't find a box of them within hours of here!

I was caught off guard for a crow shoot last year and had to use a couple boxes of my 3 3/4-1 1/4-7 1/2 flyer shells. I used a XXXFull Comp-N-Choke. My buddies using the fours commented on how far I was killing them that morning. We tallied about 120 in 3 hours in a pecan orchard.

I wouldn't care if it did kick like a drunk jackass if it would kill a crow reliably at over 80 yards. I wouldn't be shooting enough of them to hurt me or the gun anyway.

Stan

Did the small shot there give you a little clue. Crows have a lot of feathers & appear deceptivly larger than thay really are, often leading to the use of Too Large shot. Most folks don't eat them so "Mutilation" of the meat isn't generally a concern. Long range shotgunning is always a balance of pattern vs penertration. With Crows especially pick the smallest shot that will penertrate reliably.

I agree, Miller, up to a point. The crows I was killing with the 7 1/2s weren't 80 yards, more like 60. I do not believe 7 1/2's have the remaining energy to do the job on a crow at extreme ranges. Fours will. I agree that crows are pretty fragile, and not too hard to knock down. But, when we wound one and he falls and goes hopping off through the peanut field, and we have to leave our hide and run him down, we have just exposed ourselves to the keen eyes of the rest of his buddies. Can't stand to see even a crow escape wounded, so would much rather try and kill him dead. Larger shot does that better at long range. And, if he is only 20 yards, well, fours won't make him any deader, and we aren't worried about meat damage!

Stan

The current Pheasants Forever magazine carries an ad for Carlson choke tubes that are supposed to work especially well with the FliteStopper wads. Could be marketing hype, of course.

Why would it be anything but ?

This post bothered me since i read it first yesterday. Shooting at crows at 80yds with any shotgun load smacks of childish behaviour and doesn't speak well of a self styled southern gentleman who chastises others for not meeting notions of genteelmanly conduct. Ever hear of fair chase- or if you don't think crows fall under fair chase- how about humane treatment? The killing effect of shotgun at extreme range depends on multiple hits and cumulative shot energy. You spray at a crow with a 4 shot and crow flies off with punctured gut or eye shot out. This sounds more like torture not the fair chase genteel thing to do for any animal.

When it comes to crows, as long as they die, it's a blessing. They're one of the largest predators of duck and goose eggs on the planet.

DLH

Actually, we limit the children to 60 yds.

Nitro, I'm thinking that if you hit a crow in the eye with a #4 at 80 yards, that's likely a dead crow. My ballistics book only gives energy out to 70 yards, but a 4 launched at 1400 fps still retains 2.35 ft-lbs at that range. I'd say it'd be good to 80 if you hit anything vital . . . but the pattern's got to be getting pretty thin out that far.

Larry,

What book is that? I've casually accumulated some tables and graphs over the years, but don't have a table giving retained energy for anything past 50 yds.

That's Southern gentleman, nitro, with a capital S.

Is a crow wounded at 80 yds., that flies off and dies, any different than one (or any bird for that matter), that is shot at a much closer range (let's see, is 30 yds. inside your range of gentility?) and fringed on the very edge of a ragged pattern with one or two pellets and flies off to die, by someone who does not shoot enough to be proficient at killing even close birds dead in the air? I think not. Everyone who shoots at live birds wounds those that fly off and die unrecovered, whether shot at 80 yds. or at 20. We do everything we deem reasonable to prevent it, but it happens.

What's "humane" about shooting at ANYTHING with a load of pellets that destroy vital organs and deliver shock to the nervous system to a point that it falls from the sky? Ever wrung a dove's or a duck's neck, nitro? Or is that the kind of thing that folks like you just don't mention when they are chastising others for being "ungenteelmanly"? It's bloodsport, like it or not. If you're worried about inhumane treatment, I'd suggest you stick to White Flyers and Blue Rocks.

Rail all you want, I'll have nothing else to say on this matter .

Stan

I have heard...rumours I am sure..that certain small bore rifle calibers are wonderful crow medicine out to a little bit farther than 80 yards...just internet gossip, I am sure, cuz that can't be legal......

Mark

Stan;
I typed in another p[ost on this but apparently didn't hit submit as is not here. First though let me comment, I did read into your previous posts your desire was to make the longest possible "Clean Kills, without crippling. I find no fsault with that concept.
I really did not intend to say you shoulld stick with the #7½'s all the way to 80 yds, just you may not need to skip all the way up to #4's. Keeping the size of shot as small as will still give ample penertration will enhance the pattern. Even #6' "May" be adequate for a fragile bird as the crow, though they would not be for a tough duck or goose at that range.
Though strictly a reloading concept the old British Low Velocity concept using 1½ oz shot with a 3DE powder charge is about the best of all worlds for the standard 2 3/4" 12ga. Some years back The Rifleman ran a load checked by then Hercules Powder CO utilizing an early Power Piston wad. Velocity was about 100/1125 fps & recoil less than the normal HV 3 3/4-1¼ load.
Lyman's Shotgun manual 1st edition had velocity charyts for various loads & shot sizes out to 60 yds, I don't know if this is included in later editions or not. The chart was provided courtesy of Winchester, Western.

Mike: It's "Shotshells and Ballistics", by John Taylor. Safari Press, 2003. Does not have the new 1500 fps lead loads, but gives ballistics for virtually everything available back then.

I understand your point now, Miller. Though am a big believer in 6s for crows, if I only had shots at 40 yards and under I'd never use anything but 7 1/2s.

One of the biggest question marks I have about shotshell velocities concerns the fact that "the faster a shot load leaves the muzzle the faster it slows down". I certainly believe that, because to not believe it would defy the laws of physics. However, I also understand that the shotload retains a small portion of that "extra" velocity at range, just not nearly as much as the difference is at the muzzle. Soooo, just how much is retained with a 1500 fps load compared to a 1200 fps load at, let's say, 60 yds? I have not seen any data on these velocities, but would really like to. How high did the velocities go on the chart in the old Lyman manual? If, and that's a mighty big "if", the FliteStopper wad can overcome the tendency for blown patterns that we have always accepted as being almost certain with higher velocities, then the extra retained velocity (which translates into energy) may be worth the recoil for an occasional shot. This is all I was after anyway, just a few extra yards on "rifle shy" crows every now and then.

Thanks, Stan

Stan;
The old Lyman chart covered velocities from 1330 fps down through 1135 fps, or a range of 195 fps. Not all sizes of shot were covered for each velocity, but those for which factory loaded shells were regularly available. Using #6 for example @ 1330 fps pellet energy is 7.61 FtLbs while 1135 gives 5.54 FtLbs.
By 60 yds the fast load has dropped to 630 fps with 1.70 FtLbs while the "Slow Load" is 580fps with 1.45 Ft Lbs. The difference between the two has thus fallen from 195 fps & 2.07 FtLbs to 50 fps & .25Ft Lbs.
I have no down range figures at all for the 1500 fps load. However as the ballistics of a small sphere decrease dramatically the faster it is propelled beyond the speed of sound I would greatly expect the difference at 60 yds from the 1330 load to be less than that between the the 1330 & 1135 loads.
Even from the 1330 load at 40 yds #7½'s have 1.41 ft lbs energy remaining or about the same as the 1135 load of #6's at 60 yds.

I dug out my 2nd edition Lyman manual, and those figures are in it, too. Very interesting. I agree that the difference between 1500 and 1330 would be somewhat less than that between 1330 and 1135. The difference between 1135 and 1330 is 60 fps at 60 yds. with 4s. Let's be conservative and say that with the 1500 load the difference between it and the 1135 fps load would be 100 fps. at 60 yds. That 100 fps should translate into somewhere around .90 ft lb (with 4s) at 60 yds. Add that .90 to the published figure of 3.38 ft lb for the 1330 fps load of 4s at 60 yds. and you're talking serious energy per pellet, 4.28 ft lbs, and that at 60 yds. Is it possible that, even with the inefficiency of high mv, enough is retained with 4s to really matter?

Another thing I noticed when comparing the 4s and 7 1/2s. In a 1 1/4 oz. load of 7 1/2s there are 437 pellets, 169 in the same load of 4s. This is 2.6 times as many pellets. However, the energy per pellet gives a greater edge to the 4s, 3.38 ft lb compared to .93 ft lb, at 60 yds. This is 3.6 times as much energy for the 4s as the 7 1/2s. So, there needs to be 3.6 times as many pellet hits with the 7 1/2s to equal the energy with the 4s. How can you (I don't mean you, Miller) expect that, when there is not but 2.6 times as many pellets in the load? Of, course it is possible that a particular gun may do just that, but the numbers sound like they're against it happening. I know you're not advocating 7 1/2s at 60 yds., just noting the not so obvious.

I'm still in the corner with the larger (heavier) pellets. My breakdown is approximately this, 7 1/2s out to 40 yds., 6s from there out to 60 yds. and 4s from there on out.

Thanks for the feedback, Miller, and for reminding me about the tables in the old Lyman book. Please point out any flaws you find in my above reasoning. Interesting stuff!

Stan

Stan, Taylor gives 2.74 ft-lbs retained energy for a #4 at 60 yards, MV of 1330 fps. As I mentioned earlier, he does not have ballistics for the 1500 fps load. However, the difference between a 1400 fps #4 and an 1145 fps #4 is .45 ft-lbs at 70 yards . . . and the slow load still retains 1.9 ft-lbs, which should be more than enough on a crow. At such extreme range, if you're wingshooting them, I'd say you would likely notice a difference in how far you need to lead them, especially if you're shooting them as crossers. For me, that'd be of more concern than the difference in retained energy. And all else being equal, usually a slower load will pattern tighter than a faster load. Could be FliteStopper compensates for the tendency of an ultrafast load to spread more.

That's strange, that Taylor's chart gives a no. 4 pellet 2.74 ft lbs at 60 yds. with a mv of 1330, and the Lyman manual gives it 3.38 ft lbs.

I made a clean kill on a dove last Saturday with a 7/8 oz. load of 7 1/2s that was crossing at almost 90 degrees. I paced it off at 73 of my long paces, and I pace over a yard. I was using a modified choke tube in that barrel. The lead was long, but nothing I felt uncomfortable with. Crows fly a lot slower than doves. We typically begin the first crow shoot of the fall by shooting too far ahead of them. You're right, I always notice more lead at longer ranges.

Stan

Stan, I'd say you have pretty good eyes. I'm not sure I could SEE a dove well enough to shoot it beyond 70 yards!

I agree. My only frame of reference for adequate energy is that most tables show at least 2 ft-lbs at 40 yd for a #6 pellet launched at 1165 fps. I've stoned enough pheasants under those exact conditions to know it's adequate. Maybe not the ideal, or even desireable choice for some folks, but certainly adequate.

Thanks for the Taylor reference, Larry.

I often saw that same 2 Ft Lbs recommended as a reasonable minimum for ducks of Mallard or similar size when lead was legal. It should take somewhat less for a crow than either a Pheasant or Mallard. As always when seeking maximum range for a shotgun the problem lies with ballancing adequate pattern with penertration. Larger shot give adequate penertration, but if the pattern is too thin to give a multi pellet hit the shot is just as apt to enter the "Guts" as the Brain, Heart or Lungs.
I personally have serious doubts that the most reliable load for crows, uinless a "Really big Gun" is used will be found with a shot size larger than #6.

They're deceptive on the wing, they look big but it's all wing and head. Their body is hardly bigger than a pigeons unless it's a particularly big crow.

But oddly enough, they seem to be able to carry off a lot of lead. I've shot them on and off for years and seem them take some awful hits but keep going and never fall within sight.

That being said, I knocked one down a couple weeks ago while dove shooting with a 12 gauge Super Pigeon #6 load at a good 65 yards. I was just shooting to be shooting as I didn't expect to knock him down but was hoping to send him off at least very unhappy. Put on a long steady lead, touched off the gun, and he came out of the sky squalling right into the pond I was shooting near.

I don't like crows and I don't like coyotes, whenever I have a chance to do them harm I don't hold back. You boys can start all that gentleman stuff with me if you like but I could care less. You'd do the same if you saw one fly off a duck or songbird nest with egg dripping from it's bill one too many times.


Destry

Agree with you on 6's at moderate velocity for pheasants, Mike. I'll take the additional pellets and pass on the extra energy you'd get from 5's--along with a thinner pattern. Different story if you're doing all your rooster shooting at 50 yards plus, however.