doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need help with older Francotte

Thank you all for looking so carefully at the evidence.

The * over U is also on the flat part of the action that mates with this flat part of the barrels (is that the water table?). Inspection with the naked eye of the character in question is much more lower case alpha than small x: on the left barrel (in the picture) there's a curved portion of the character in the 7 o'clock position that looks like the left side of an alpha.

This makes for an interesting question about production date. Is there any question about the numbering system and the year associated with 253xx? How about style clues?

I looked at the marking under bright light and high magnification and the numbers on the barrel flats inside the oval are 20-70 on both sides. The small alpha does not appear at all, but the P.V under a bar and squiggle are the same, but there is a * over an AH and vertical bar over three chevrons that are different.

The PV under the Lion (thats what it is supposed to be) is the belgian nitro proof mark, the * over AH is an inspectors or controllers mark, the other mark is a Perron which is the mark of the Liege proof house. All indications are that the gun was made in the late 1940s. This site http://site.voila.fr/guideliege/ has a lot of info but is in french, if you open it with Google you can translate it

Thank you for the additional information. I am accumulating very useful information for an eventual buyer. This is an interesting detective exercise.
I appreciate all the effort that has gone into providing this background. Based on your hard work I will ignore the serial # list and trust the much more persuasive proof markings and inspectors marks and date the gun to the 1940's.
That eliminates the easy "Medium Grade Gun" assessment based on the serial #. Is it necessary to identify a model number, or should I simply leave it up to the 'eye of the beholder' to determine it's 'grade'? That leaves the problem of finding 'comps' for pricing, but one step at a time.

Great reference at the cited web site (http://site.voila.fr/guideliege/) re: Auguste Francotte marks.

SHOCKER to me: I can't find a single mark on the gun, under strong light and 3x magnification, that looks like any of the marks attributed to that factory!! Our assumption that is is a Francotte was all based on word of mouth, and that may have led us astray. Its starting to look like the gun may have been bought from the Francotte dealership, and modified to fit my father by their workshop, but it is by some other Belgian maker.

That doesn't change the fact that its a very nice shotgun in a desirable gauge and style, but there is no marquee value. While not a catastrophe, it is disappointing.

What now, gentlemen? Can we put a reasonable value on a nice, used, unknown maker Belgian SxS, so that I can report that value back to the family and let them decide what to do next?

Francottes usually have an F with a crown on the bbl flats...are you sure this is a Francotte? Or perhaps the bbls were replaced, that would explain the date mismatch.

Well, you just took a turn... The *AH is from around 1900 or so. The list of controllers were assembled from memory by employees. They could not be sure of marks associated with controllers before about 1911. I have a 1906 source that talks about double letters, but does not give names or dates of employment.

So, it looks like the barrels came much later. But the action is older. So far you have not described a makers mark. Francotte used many different marks over this time period. They all seemed to revolve around an AF and crown.

Pete

My guess is that if it doesn't say Francotte anywhere on the gun, and especially since the proprietary Francotte proof (AF under a crown) isn't shown on the barrel flats, it's not a Francotte. Expect what you have is a Belgian "guild gun"--doesn't mean poor quality, but it does mean no name and therefore not worth as much. And because of the 20-70 in the sideways horseshoe or capital C, the gun (or at least the barrels) is definitely post-1924. A nice Belgian 20 with factory 2 3/4" chambers is still a gun that will attract interest, but certainly less than if it were a Francotte.

In your description, you mention pitting around the muzzles. Do you mean on the outside of the barrels or the inside? If on the outside and you post photos along with a for sale ad, you might want to try and get a decent closeup of the pitting so potential buyers will have a better idea.

OK, I'll kick off a starter price for discussion. Brand Value level five (BV5) for a Continental no-name gun. Original Quality grade six (OQ6) for a "fair to middlin'" BLE. Current Condition level three (CC3) for "significent use." BV5-OQ6-CC3 = $580 for a 12 bore SXS shotgun of "usual" configuration at USA retail. Give it 2X for 20 bore and you have $1160 for openers. Too little? Too much? Comparables?

I was fooled by my old eyes looking at the * over the AH, which I though looked the same as the AF under the crown that was on the verified Francotte. It was only when I put on the magnifier and put a very strong light on the flat part that it was clear that the marking was not what I thought it was.
I appreciate your coments about the value of a guild gun. The pitting is on the inside. I don't have equipment that will allow me to take a picture of it, but I certainly will make potential buyers aware of it in my ad.
The big question: after looking at several dealers' gun lists, a nice grade 'shooter' should be fairly marketable. Would $850 - $1,000 be the right price neighborhood for this gun (based on the pictures)?