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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
CBL1:
Very good find and that's what I'd expect to see for a needlefire, swinging tube set and all. And it even wears the "Crown" over "V" noting it was instock or on-hand.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 196
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 196 |
Pleasure Raimey - I follow the UK auctions with keen interest and so remembered this unusual needlefire from a couple of days back. The Holts auction is always an interesting read for the sheer breadth of lots.
Craig.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11 |
As suggested by others, your gun it is possibley a rare needle fire gun F.von Dreyse(Sommerda). A similar looking gun was sold by Christie,s London in a sale December 1 1998,and is pictured in the sale catalogue; lot 86.In pristine condition sold for 1725 pounds stirling. The gun was from the important vintage firearms collection of Mr,George Yannaghs.
Another needle fire gun in the same condition, by the same maker, lot 85, but of a slightly different design sold for the same price.Both of these guns had barrels that swung side-ways to facilitate loading.If the barrels on your gun swing to the side it is almost certainley a gun by made by F.von Dreyse.
Last edited by Roy Hebbes; 06/05/10 07:57 AM.
Roy Hebbes
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13 |
   Here's my guess of what it is: a Franz von Dreyse 20 bore that is based on his 1874 centralfire patent and may not have begun life as a needlefire. Upon closer inspection of the photos it seems to have some protrusions required for the needlefire cartridge. So I can't say if it was converted at the factory or not. It has an extractor so it was for scattergun cartridges. Recently I've been trying to determine about when the 20 bore cartridge arrived on the scene. I don't think it began life as a needlefire since the tubes don't swing to the side and since the stamp "Papp Cartouche Cal. XX" isn't present. It's difficult to tell but it was either assembled from older components or possibly converted. I'd guess the mainsprings to be coil springs instead of leaf springs. It doesn't have precious metal barrel bands and the tubes look to be of the pattern welded variety. Those with gold barrel bands and deep relief engraving sometimes had somewhat of a jeweled watertable. The engraving reminds me of similar examples by A. Haetge or Miller & Val. Greiß. But it could have been sourced in the white and finished by any craftsman such as "CFW". I know it may be tough but pics of the undersides of the tubes may yield some direction as to the craftsman that made it and then again "CFW" may be all that is there. Considering the 1874 patent and that weapons began wearing proofmarks in 1891/1893, I'd say it was made during that period and more than likely in the 1880s, possibly in the mide to late 1880s. Dreyse also had a firm/facility that made the components as well as cartridges. Do the tabs/buttons on the rear release the mainsprings and are those all screws on the sides of the centralfire system? Kind Regards, Raimey rse You guys are amazing! Thank you so much for taking the time to try and figure this out. You asked:Do the tabs/buttons on the rear release the mainsprings and are those all screws on the sides of the centralfire system?...can you tell me what to look for in layman's terms?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
I think an upper and lower realized value may have been noted and I hope you get $4k pounds sterling but you are going to have to match the gun to the buyer with the market being narrow. I don't think it will realize a value at or over 1725 pounds sterling. Well, after staring at the action for some time it finally came to me: Collath. The protrusions on the standing breech and the circular component in the receiver as well as the end of the forend. Let me check for some Collath examples. I think he joined Teschner in the mid 1850s so he was well aware of the system.  A pic of the standing breech and a close-up of the forend might aide. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
On each individual striker/tube, what do you press to either cock or uncock the mainspring/gun? Or can you let the tension off the mainspring without pulling the trigger? So you are cocking it by pulling back the knobs/tabs?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
HofBüchsenmacher Berger of Köten in Saxony had a central/center fire design with very similar strikers. Wilhelm Collath had at least 8 weapons patents and his design was an “eccentric” lockup with a tipping-barrel breech and really no hinge. It has a disk in the forend that facilitates the lockup. I would say that Georg Teschner of Frankurt on the Oder or Wilhem Collath improved the 1856 design of Johann Nikolaus/Niklaus von Dreyse, which was based on the 1856 design(Feb. 22, 1856 – French #16042) of Bastin which was based on that of Casmir Lefaucheux of January 28th, 1833(French #5525). Now here’s where it gets a bit confusing as who did what and the terminology. George Teschner, and also Berger, were also in the cartridge design business. Titled top gunmaker Berger was also in the mix and it may very well be that the two, or 3, collaborated on design as well as cartridges. But Berger and Teschner referred to scattergun with firing pins, or central/center/center fire longarms as Lancaster, and I think that to evolve from the scattergun cartridge being call Lancaster. At any rate Berger & Teschner’s design allowed the interchangeability of needfire and central fire; hence, a conversion. And for some reason Teschner, in order to use the Berger cartridges, converted some of his central fire longarms back to needlefire in order to use the Berger cartridges. So for some finite period, central fire, needlefire and pinfire longarms were produced simultaneously. It seems that on most of the Dreyse/Berger/Teschner/Collath examples the lever moves to the left in order to breech the weapon while the Lefaucheux style moves to the right. So in changing/updating my opinion for today, I’d say you have a double sourced from Teschner/Collath who also heavily sourced Suhl & Zella-Mehlis, based on the Berger design, which was based on Dreyse’s design. I would also say that it may only accept Teschner type cartridges.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
Here's a couple of A. Haetge of Berlin examples which I guess to have been sourced from Teschner/Collath: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/artisan%20g%20h/a%20haetge%20a%20gb.htm . I don't think it to be too terribly far from the Teschner/Collath factory to A. Haetge's Berlin retail outlet. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13 |
It's ok if you start giggling when you read this but I will tell you what happens when or if it was loaded: The arm on bottom swings to the left and it opens to load. The little pins on the end also pop out at this time. I'm guessing to cock it you have to depress the tabs?
The sun is out, if I need to take a couple of pics of something close up, let me know!
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