doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Do we need choke?

Have shot DTs for almost 50 yrs. and am old fashion when it Comes to SxSs, in fact have 2 O/Us with DT, an old Browning and a Marlin. Very seldon wear gloves when hunting, but if I do wear wool mitt/glove type where the mitten top flips over and I have a half bare trigger finger. I hunt in Dec. and Jan. and am lucky very seldom have trouble with cold hands, now feet are a different story.

Sam,
I may have inadvertently discovered another method of tightening the little .410 pattern, regardless of choke or cylinder. Years ago, I bought that little LeFever Nitro Special .410 with all the engraving and new wood. The barrels are pitted and the chambers had been lengthend by a hack with a common 45 degree lead chucking reamer. I took careful measurements and had a chamber/forcing cone reamer made from a "taper pin reamer" (1/4" per foot taper). It fixed that gun's chamber problems. I've always shot that gun well and taken quite a bit of game with it, sometimes at pretty long distances for the IC/MOD choking.

Recently, I used that reamer on another gun to go out to 3" chambers. (It produces 3" forcing cones if you haven't calculated it by now.) I noted that the right barrel had been openned to cylinder. When I started shooting it on the pattern board, my friend that shoots .410 exclusively, was there. He was so impressed with the pattern desity using the same factory loads he uses in his guns (mostly his CSM 21, but also P-guns and M42's) that he begged me to open up his CSM 21 chambers on both sets of barrels.

I think the effect of a gradual forcing cone reduces the damage to the shot. Since the 3" .410 has more percentage of shot in contact with the bore than any other bore size, the effect is magnified.

These taper pin reamers are available from many industrial supply sources on the net for not much money. Finding a cutter grinding service was easy for me, since I know people in that biz. But, any area with industrial machining will have a cutter grinder biz base of some kind. The chamber body diameter (which is slightly tapered), is simply "spun" (ground by spinning the cutter between centers on the countersinks in either end), without any "relief" since all you are doing is cuting the forcing cone.

Try it on one of your .410's, I think you'll like it.

Chuck,

If I understand it, sounds like chamber is now 3" with a 3" forcing cone beyond. I don't doubt this reduces shot damage, particularly with the 3" shells that invariably (?) employ 1/2oz shotcups. I have to wonder if you have created, in effect, a proximal choke section with extremely long parallel section? Did you take bore diam measurements at beginning and end of forcing cone section? Just curious.

Wish I could bring myself to play around with a M-42, but don't have the cajones. If I find a beater M-37A I might just play with it.

3" .410 loads are odd ducks - through my barrels they behave as though there are two distinct populations of pellets. The "bad" population peels off early in flight. But the "good" population carries about as well as a good load from a 12. Let's say you have a full barrel. Using RP 3" #6 shells as an example, at just 20 yds you may see a pattern percentage of 65-70%. That's awful for a full choke, right? Moreover, it will have an impossibly small, hot core and few pellets in the outer circle. But move the paper to 40 yds and you just might see 65% again, this time the pattern looks useable out to 21" or so. Not so awful. I will say this - whoever said choke makes no difference with a .410 never shot any 40 yd patterns with one.

Sam

We had a similar discussion yesterday at the 5-stand course where such things are put to practical use. My pal with the K-80 was shoointg chokes marked skeet and I/C. He claims the pattern board with his 7/8oz 12ga loads show they print THAT LOAD closer to modified and full. This combo essentially removes what would have been a 'finge' had he been shooting a standard load.

On the other hand, I use chokes made and marked by Briley as cylinder in my Invector Plus choked Cynergy. I also use a 1 oz load with hard shot. It prints a strong I/C in spite of the choke markings. Reason? Long cones, overbore barrel, some effective choke anyway due to the jug effect of the screw in system, modern shotcup wad and very hard shot. I like to have some fringe area on S/C targets, as I tend to be a crummy shooter on a regular basis and this gets me a better score. This is not skeet or trap where the distance can be closely approximated.

We also shot some 19 yard wobble trap. Everybody had a I/M choke or a full choke. Hardly obsolete on those targets.

If you do not have a near 70% pattern at the plane of the target, there will be statistical misses Digweed or no Digweed. This was measured and quantified years ago. Effecting a kill with a shotgun is a sometimes thing and the only way, and I mean the ONLY way to shoot perfect scores consistently is to have equipment that eliminates the chance variable. This still requires choke, at least with lead shot.

Apparently Winchester didn't agree with Mr. Hoggson about the ability to break targets at 20 yards with a cylinder bore .410. During the production of the 101 O/U, Winchester changed from 0.005" constriction for skeet chokes in the .410 to cylinder bore (they did the same for 12, 20 and 28 gauges too). At skeet station 4, the target never gets closer to the shooter than 21 yards, and people still managed to shoot decent scores with the cylinder chokes. I personally prefer 0.007" of choke for my .410 skeet guns, but Winchester didn't ask me.

12 gauge no choke break more skeet birds than smaller gauge with choke.

It only takes one pellet to break clay. Early flushing, late season, wild pheasants need alot more pounding to put down especially if you don't have a dog to chase down lightly hit runners. Personally, I like alot of choke. When crow hunting I use Super Full in my Maxus and my brother uses X-Full in his 870. Hit em hard or miss em clean.

Ed there's more to life than breaking "skeet birds"....I have no interest in a vintage SxS without choke.

Been there done that.

Sometimes. If you walk around on a target field, you'll pick up a surprising number of clays with one hole in them. Some with two. Very occasionally, 3. I don't think the guys who are shooting the top scores at the target games are counting on single pellet breaks. Especially not in American skeet, where if you don't go straight--especially with the gauges other than the .410--you aren't going to win.

If you're counting on one pellet breaking a clay bird it had better have some very fast rotation, so that you will get assistance from the centrifugal force helping it to come apart. I used to scavenge used clays at a local range to use in an old Comet trap. I have picked up hundreds with multiple holes that did not cause a chip or come part.

I like smoke, not chips. Centered birds and plenty choke gets smoke.

Stan