doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Best side mount scope mounts

This is a thread that I hope will let folks discuss the various makers and their designs of side mounted scope mounts. We all know of the G&H but there were others. (and certainly G&H is not excluded, please don't get me wrong).
Michael P, on another thread, just displayed the pics of a Niedner mount on a Newton rifle. Lets show others.
Pics, plus's and minus's would be interesting. American, British and European.

The first side mount that I know of in the USA was made by Noske.
Noske Patent

Here is a link to pictures of the Noske:
Noske Pictures

Very interesting, I think you can see that G&H used this patent to help with their patents. IMHO

Since one reason for choosing a sidemount was/is to clear the receiver for iron sight use, my vote goes to the G&H. It is the least obtrusive when the scope is removed, and as installed by G&H and some others with base screwheads and pins machined off and polished over, the least messy looking.

There were a slew of different Noske mounts, I see new ones all the time.

More Noske,

What do you think of the Niedner that M.P. showed on the Newton?

I'm not sure who was next , Niedner or G&H.

AO does not appear to have patented his mount.
The Niedner appears to slide off its mount perpendicular to the action while the Noske and G&H are parallel to the action, is that correct? Do the 2 large slotted screw attach the mount to the base which is attached to the action? The screw at the front appears to maybe be the windage adjustment? Sorry for all the questions.

None of the Niedner scope mounts were patented.

They slid off just as the Noske and G&H do, the screws tighten the mount like the lever(s) on the G&H.

All scope mounts of this vintage had windage in the mounts, the German scopes only had elevation.

The Mauser above is a Niedner in .257-Roberts with a Shelhamer stock. When I got it over thirty years ago I shot a five-shot group with the Hensoldt scope, then removed and replaced it, every shot, for the next group, both groups the same size and same place.

The first G&H mount was a single lever, the a lot of different two lever ones. In the early years the scope was carried in a holster on the belt.

Sedgley made a side mount also, I've only seen this one in the pictures and have not acquired one.

Lyman made a side mount and scope to go with it for a short time. It was not very popular.

More Noske,

Tomorrow we can explore Jaeger, the most complicated history of them all.

This is an early Jaeger mount, Rifle is Terry's.

Michael:

I never cease to be amazed at the depth of your knowledge and your photographic skills. I do hope you've organized all of this information in some fashion and decided on a permanent home for it when you're not around to act as the curator anymore.

Rem

Rem, Thanks, Ive been working toward that goal for sometime now and have it about solved. More on this subject at a later date.

Would that be finding a curator or "when you're not around"? Hope it is the former.

I am waiting with baited breathe for Jaeger...this has been an education for me and I hope all. I would like to see some more detailed photos of the Niedner if that isn't too much to ask.

Can anyone chime in on their opinions of the Holland & Holland QD side mount? Claimed by some to be the very best.

Franz Jaeger moved his family to New York with the idea of starting a gunmaking company here in the USA. He could not find enough skilled workmen so he returned to Suhl. When he was in NY they had a son, Paul. Because Paul was born in the USA he was a citizen and returned later in life. (I'm working on a Jaeger article so that's it for now on the history.)

The early mounts sold by Stoeger and sold by Paul Jaeger I believe were all made in Suhl at Jaegers.

There are many of these mounts around, the very first, like on Terry's rifle have a hook at both ends, I'll try to find a good picture.



Then came the mounts with teeth, these were used on the early Philadelphia Paul Jaeger rifles.

More Jaeger mounts,

OK, Test time, who can tell me about this one?

Lets not forget Hart Arms Company, Cleveland, Ohio.

I have not included makers like English because they are post war.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181260898

Have I forgotten anyone?

Michael,
When is your article scheduled to be published and can we ask what publication?

Here are a few "poor"photos of the sidemount I made for my 300H&H M70:




The reason for my interest in these now is because of a possible upcoming project.

Michael keep the pics and info coming. Thanks

English patent:
WH English patent

What about Echo or are they post war also?

Echo is post WWII.

The simple G&H marked mount with screwheads not levers that Michael posted a photo of was/is a cheaper version of the lever mount. I think I recall seeing it advertised in old issues of AR.

I write for Precision Shooting with about three or so articles a year. Not very prolific and I never know after I send them in when they will appear. My Dubiel article was published this month so I need to get busy.

Nice work on the side mount, thanks for sharing.

I have an ad somewhere for them, I think they were made for the little Weaver small diameter scopes. This might be the only one I've seen outside of advertising.

i would say noske's lil' 2.5 or 4x 'IMP' with its mount is the coolest of them all.
post wwII version by another manufacturer was called boone gunscope.

The little G&H mount with the screws holds the Weaver-Type 3/4" scopes.

The mount and base are different also, the base would have two notches in the side.

An engraved Noske I bought years ago for a G&H but they are not interchangeable.

The Niedner tool-room model, I like this one made using the Mann-Niedner taper block principle.

I think I'm out of side-mount information, Any questions?

The Niedner tool-room model:
When detaching this from the gun it appears to slide off to the rear which might be a issue on some guns if you want a receiver sight also. Correct me if I am seeing this wrong.

The long hook....is that a dent pin just to the left of the hook which probably holds the hook in place?

About windage:
The neidner appears to pivot on the rear of the sight to get windage and it is controlled by the screws at the front. Correct? While many of the others have a slide mechanism for the rear ring that is screwed in and out for windage. Any opinion on which is better? More stable? etc?

I understand Michael that your interest is pre-war your knowledge is unrivalled however I would like others to add to the volume of knowledge for post war if they have any to offer.

Oh yes I almost forgot, on the tool-room mount, with 4 screws and 2 dowel pins they didn't want it to move.

Yes it does slide to the rear and it's not an issue on the 1903 Springfield or Mausers with the Lyman 48 on the other side.

Yes it does hold the hook in place.

I can't see where the mount swiveling on the front or rear makes any difference but then I've not spent any time thinking about it.

The base with this appears to have had a lot of use and looks like it was even soldered on guns.

One of the workmen at Niedners told me that they sometimes soldered on bases to test iron sighted rifles before finial finish and blue.

The soldering on of the base is an interesting idea. Sure would solve the problem drilling and tapping holes in the side which become very permenant an unsightly if the base is removed.

Here's a pic of some more Jaeger stuff, mostly or maybe all postwar though. You can see that there are 3 different ring heights, all interchangeable or at least on my mounts they are. Notice that there are both steel and alloy rings and the ring widths/profiles vary even among rings made of the same material. The medium-ht alloy rings on the rifle have been spaced upward by thin washers to gain clearance for the larger eyepiece of the Leupold with lens caps while the low-ht steel rings have had long spacers (crudely unfinished) added to their bottoms to make them as high as the mediums.

The orphan rings are 7/8" (22mm). The base on the viewer's left is a round-backed one for the later mounts and the one on the right is a flat-backed one with the earlier toothed clamp-lock recess. Overall sizes, spring-lock recesses and dovetails are same-same with the clamp-locking recess shape being the only difference between the two.

All the Jaeger side mounts I've seen have had their stop studs mounted to the front ring so that the scope slides on from the front, but I usually switch it to the rear if possible, for an additional recoil support.

BTW some of the Jaeger rings (not the mounts or bases) appear identical in appearance & shape to some of the G&H rings; I wonder if they'll interchange?
Regards, Joe

Here's a better view of the various Jaeger ring heights. I chose not to dismount the medium-ht rings from the carefully zeroed rifle but the crudely unfinished steel ring in the center is approximately the medium height.

The high rings are intended for the Mannlicher split-bridge rifles & unaltered-bolt rifles while the low rings would appear to have limited utility except with the smaller scopes or the higher-mounted bases.

Michael, have you ever tried to interchange G&H parts with Jaeger? I don't have any G&H mounts at present for comparison but the Jaeger ring mounting appears to be identical in design if not in actual dimensions. Might be worth investigating.
Regards, Joe

I've not tried that I'll check my Jaeger stuff and see if I have a post-war one.

Are all your Jaeger mounts marked Jaeger and do any of them have an address?

All show the Jenkintown address, Paul Jaeger - Jenkintown Pa. I don't have a mount for the serrated base, it's my impression that it's an earlier base. The clamps on the mounts shown in the pic are slightly longer than the clamp on a Jaeger mount that I used to own, a mount that was otherwise identical to them. The mount with the shorter clamp had 7/8" low rings and so I assumed that it was probably an earlier one although maybe not quite as early as the serrated one. The dovetails on all my bases have all been the same size over the years, any differences have been in the clamps and their recess dimensions. IOW I have the option of altering my serrated base to take the later clamp, and the dovetail on the base will still be snug in the later mount. It would fit perfectly on a Mannlicher-Shoenauer or Savage 99....

BTW Jaeger offered a double-lever side mount at one time but I've never owned one.
Regards, Joe

I am away from my library but think that at one time, maybe in the 1950s or 60s, Jaeger offered what they may have called a "Magnum" mount that had a longer dovetail base and perhaps two levers. It was cataloged.

Joe,

I don't have a post war Jaeger but pulled both a steel and aluminum G&H ring out. They both have a stud that measures .315".

Good memory Mark, from an undated Jaeger catalog.

Did you have a date on that catalog page? If in the '50s at $42 they weren't giving them away. The good stuff has always cost a little more.

Nice info, thanks.

Michael, my Jaegers measure 0.312" OD x 0.197" high, threaded 10-32. So apparently we might have a fairly close match; I suppose my orphan 7/8" rings might actually be G&H since their appearance actually matches the G&H ones better than the Jaeger ones. Come to think of it, those steel rings might also be G&H since I have no idea where they came from and they, also, don't really match the appearance of the alloy Jaegers.

Another tidbit of info added to the rest!
Regards, Joe

I would like to point out one thing that seems to have a bit of confusion about it. Both pictures are of a early G&H rifles one has a single-lever G&H mount the other has a Noske mount.

This is the top view of a G&H single-lever base.



This is the top view of a Noske base, this rifle was ever pictured in an article with a G&H mount and scope laying next to the rifle. They are most likley still trying to figure out why it did not fit.


Remember the Noske notch is tapered, the G&H is not. The Noske scope mount was used on many early custom rifles by G&H and other makers.

One of my more elegant HiWalls is a G&H .250-3000 with a Noske top mount rib ahead of the action, complete with tapered notch described by Mike. Alas the mount bracket is missing and in years looking at gun shows I have never seen a Noske topmount, on or off a gun. The type could also have been used as an offset sidemount bracket for Winchester lever actions.

The earlier Noske mounts http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/r-noske-wwii-sniper-scope-mount-only-excellent had a unique split base rail that was spread by the two large capstan screws on top of the mount. This always seemed a better system to me than the typical lever/camming eccentric system which rely on a degree of 'slop' between base and rail to allow them to slide on and off. The two large taper-pointed screws also locked the mount in place very well. I suppose the only possible negative was that knurled capstan screws might have been a little hard to grasp for some people, hence the capstan bar holes for a pull through weight or something like that.

Did Noske move to the tapered rail and mount later, or were the different types concurrent?

The 'micro-adjustability' of the Jaeger mounts for eye-relief is excellent. I'm not aware of any other system that offers such a feature.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and photos!

I've never put a lot of effort into trying to sort out all the different Noske mounts and when they were developed and sold.

I believe that this was the first mount that they used, patent filed in 1921 and granted in 1922 which has the dovetail base.

Noske Patent


There are so many different Noske mounts, it would make an interesting article for someone to research and write

FYI if you are interested:
182679164 Gunbroker
Original Paul Jaeger 1" Side mount Rings

While we're on the subject of side mounts, does anyone recognize these? They are mounted to a modified Springfield 1903 NRA Sporter on GunBroker, which looks like it should be worth saving http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181919996

Cheers,
Peconga in Boise, Idaho

I've never seen that one before!

Good pics of Hart sidemount

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=184804418

On a Sedgely 1903.

Hey Mike,

The base mount on this rifle looks very much like the one on my FN. The notch on the dovetail is in the same position as mine and the length looks to be the same.

Jack

Going back to page 1 - Michael's 3rd post shows 3 rifles. The one at the bottom with the gold trigger and mag cut-off has a windage adjustable Zeiss Zielklein - you just don't see those every day! I've heard of one new-in-the-box in a collection, but have never actually put my eyes on one.

Good eye Bryndon, I believe that they were introduced in 1938, this is the only one I have ever seen.

It's possibly I've run across others and just not noticed. I won't tell you how long I had this rifle before I saw the windage knob.

Frank Pachmayr 1938:

brought back to the top for relevance to a current threat

I prefer offset mounts, which allow use of iron sights, and scope at the same time, without removing the scope. The old Stevens, and Malcolm scope mounts are very cool!

Although I have rifles equipped with such, I'm just not a fan of side or offset mounts. To me they're just....awkward. Very nice Ballard!!!

Vall, the offset mount, rather then being designed so you can use the tang sight another possibility may be it was for a right hand shooter that needed to use his left eye for aiming. Maybe blind or left eye dominate. Just a thought.

BTW nice rifle...I have a passion for Ballard's and that is a beauty

I have seen a lot several of offset mounts on singleshots in the BPCR and BPTR competitions. The photo above does not illustrate anywhere near the degree of offset that those people incorporate into their rifles. I don't think this offset was suitable for that purpose.

"a lot" was a bit of a stretch...

Gentlemen, I am searching for a Paul Jaeger mount for my Mannlicher Schoenauer, which is the same mounting system as indicated on J.D. Steele's post on 7/30/10 shown above. What I am looking for is the mount on the right of his posted photo with high rings. If anyone has one I would be very interested.
Ruzpull1

There is similar on EBay. Don't know if it is exactly what you want but have a look.

New England Custom Gun Services has some NOS Jaeger mounts & blank bases but only medium 1" rings.

I do know that for 1952 & later M/S rifles medium rings will provide enough clearance for the bolt handle as long as the ocular bell on the scope is < 1.45". I'm not sure about earlier M/S rifles as the bolt handle is shaped differently.

Hello LRF,
would you happen to know the item number for that mount? I am not having any luck locating it.

Thanks Brittany Man. I will call New England and check it out.
Thanks again.

Ebay 272222625010

I have a Paul Jaeger sidemount on my Springfield. It is very well made and returns to zero. I do have a problem with the locking clamp opening under recoil. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong but I don't see how to secure the lock arm after mounting the scope to keep this from happening. Anybody know how to fix this?

Jerry Liles

Thank you LRF. I took a close look at the mount and it has two notched out grooves in the base plate indicating a slightly different slide on mount. I hesitate to change the base mounting plate as the person who installed it attached it with precision and love and the way he cut out the stock to accommodate the plate is perfect. Judging from the mounting holes in the plate the screw holes and locating pins are slightly different on the Ebay unit.I do have photos of the mounting plate but no way to post them.
Thank you again for your help. I must keep looking. Tomorrow I will call New England FA.

RE:longer lock bar spacing in G&H style rail.
I have a Sedgely custom with a Griffin and Howe rail mount that is identical in all respects to G7H EXCEPT the crossbolt indents are spaced at 2-7/8" as opposed to 2" on all my other G&H equipped rifles (8). Can anyone give me a steer as to the maker?
Thanks
Oldguncrank

WJL,
Jerry,
This is just a "shot in the dark", but check to see if the lever "bottoms out", it should not. Most of them are adjustable, so that they don't( different makers have different systems). If the lever bottoms out, it is not tight.
Mike

Griffin and Howe weren't the only ones making mounts like that,
here is an example of an Akah mount that is similar

Akah mount on ebay

Der Ami,

Thanks for the reply. The lever does not "bottom out" and the connection is tight. However after one or two shots the lever has begun to open and the scope is loose. Most annoying. I keep thinking there must be a trick or something I should be doing to keep this from happening. If this was common or usual with this mount I should have read about it somewhere or there should have been some instructions from Jaeger on how to correct it.

Any help is appreciated.

Jerry Liles

Jerry,
Sorry it didn't work out. I once mounted a "no name" side mount and couldn't stop the top part from slipping forward, until I installed a roll pin through the dovetail for the top to bump against. Since it was in a dovetail, I had to first mill a flat( like a spotfacer)to keep the drill from "running". Whether you modify your mount, or not, is entirely up to you. It worked in my case, but I have no idea about yours. The mod is unobtrusive.
Mike

I think my memory is going down the drain, but I swear that I remember some discussion on this forum where someone, maybe
Don Moody or J.D. Steele talked about making tiny lock washers for this or a similar situation. I've done searches for every combination that I can conceive but found nothing.