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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Hi Phi, Even if Einstein supported the "water hose" theory I could not buy it, let alone Greener. Please think about it: how can a swarm of pellets leaving the barrel milliseconds after you pull the trigger at +/- 1,200ft/sec be "modified" by you moving the barrel? Come on!  JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
Hi Phi,
how can a swarm of pellets leaving the barrel milliseconds after you
pull the trigger at +/- 1,200ft/sec be "modified" by you moving the barrel?
JC JayCee, that's exactly what I'm asking. You're not explaining to me how it can't be modified. You're taking it for granted that I agree with you and I simply don't know one way or the other anymore. What I'm asking for is an explination of why barrel swing can't effect shot string. To me it seems like it would.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
See Bob Brister The Art and Science of Shotgunning. He did it all with pix decades ago.
shot column heights are what they are. Who GAF? Shot strings are choke effect dependent. and once again Who GAF? Worry about something you can affect.
And if you are at that hose analogy for shot charges/strings you are in some serious trouble and in massive conflict with the physical universe. JIC you might have wondered.
Dr.WtS Wonko I'm sorry but that's ignorant... that's like saying bullet head spacings "are what they are". We're talking about ballistics here. EVERYTHING has an effect.
Last edited by phideaux2003; 07/23/10 11:39 AM.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
You can always tell a Texan,,,,,,,,,,,but not much. The shotstring does not even exist until after the shot has left the muzzle, so how could moving the muzzle (after it's gone) affect it?
The impression you've been under is simply wrong. As shotgunners, we are plagued with myths, false impressions and old wives' tales. This is just one more of them. Jim, please understand that I'm not arguing with you. My understanding of the subject has been found to be incomplete and down right wrong and I just want to know why. You keep telling me I'm wrong, but that doesn't help me. I want to understand this subject. That's why I posted the OP.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
You can always tell a Texan,,,,,,,,,,,but not much. The shotstring does not even exist until after the shot has left the muzzle, so how could moving the muzzle (after it's gone) affect it?
The impression you've been under is simply wrong. As shotgunners, we are plagued with myths, false impressions and old wives' tales. This is just one more of them. Why do we keep the muzzle moving ? To sling the string.....think with yer dip stick Jammy  The shot string is not as long in a 1 & 1/4 oz balanced load as in say an over stuffed 2 &1/4oz 12 ga. load.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,035 Likes: 47
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,035 Likes: 47 |
I've done my best to avoid commenting in this thread, but now it's just impossible to ignore.
The hose nozzle analogy always fishes me in.
The effect of the choke is near exactly analogous to a nozzle. The shot is spread logitundially by the choke, and stop action photographs prove that.
The shotstring starts in the shotcup. Some pellets are ahead of others. Only if the bore was big enough to accomodate a single layer of pellets would there be no shotstring.
The length of the shotstring at the target is effected by, as mentioned, the degree of choke, the roundness of the pellets, and the TIME OF FLIGHT.
The possible effect of muzzle motion on spreading the pattern radially is not illogical to consider. In fact, if the shot charge took a long time to exit the muzzle the effect would be measureable simply because trailing pellets would be given a different vector at exit. The key is relative motion and time. Since the charge which is very short, passes the muzzle very quickly at exit, the pellets are given essentially the same vector. It's impossible for the gunner to move the gun fast enough to create any measureable spread. It's not a dumb question, it's just not something that can be measured because the effect is tiny at our muzzle speeds.
The 'follow through' is neurological. It takes time, quite a bit of it actually, from the time your brain says 'fire' to the exit time of the shot charge. The 'follow through' so necessary to hit the target assures the launch point is as intended and not 10 feet behind like it is if you fail to 'follow through'. This is experimentally proven every time I miss a bird.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11 |
See Bob Brister The Art and Science of Shotgunning. He did it all with pix decades ago.
shot column heights are what they are. Who GAF? Shot strings are choke effect dependent. and once again Who GAF? Worry about something you can affect.
And if you are at that hose analogy for shot charges/strings you are in some serious trouble and in massive conflict with the physical universe. JIC you might have wondered.
Dr.WtS Wonko I'm sorry but that's ignorant... that's like saying bullet head spacings "are what they are". We're talking about ballistics here. EVERYTHING has an effect. I was tempted to repost my above comments in BOLD so that you might be able to absorb that info in a more efficacious manner. But I decided that clearly you lack the ability to read and comprehend so I passed on that. I will reluctantly refrain from commenting on your ancestry as well. have a day Dr.WtS
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
I've done my best to avoid commenting in this thread, but now it's just impossible to ignore.
The hose nozzle analogy always fishes me in.
The effect of the choke is near exactly analogous to a nozzle. The shot is spread logitundially by the choke, and stop action photographs prove that.
The shotstring starts in the shotcup. Some pellets are ahead of others. Only if the bore was big enough to accomodate a single layer of pellets would there be no shotstring.
The length of the shotstring at the target is effected by, as mentioned, the degree of choke, the roundness of the pellets, and the TIME OF FLIGHT.
The possible effect of muzzle motion on spreading the pattern radially is not illogical to consider. In fact, if the shot charge took a long time to exit the muzzle the effect would be measureable simply because trailing pellets would be given a different vector at exit. The key is relative motion and time. Since the charge which is very short, passes the muzzle very quickly at exit, the pellets are given essentially the same vector. It's impossible for the gunner to move the gun fast enough to create any measureable spread. It's not a dumb question, it's just not something that can be measured because the effect is tiny at our muzzle speeds.
The 'follow through' is neurological. It takes time, quite a bit of it actually, from the time your brain says 'fire' to the exit time of the shot charge. The 'follow through' so necessary to hit the target assures the launch point is as intended and not 10 feet behind like it is if you fail to 'follow through'. This is experimentally proven every time I miss a bird.
Excellent! Thank you shotgunjones. That's exactly what I was looking for. Wonko, you however have still merely given a statement with, until now, no explination. Thusly your statement was taken as opinion, one I happened to not understand. Rather than explain it you chose to chastise me as ignorant and an idiot. I hope to heaven you're not a teacher. You'd be a miserable failure if you were. Thank you again shotgunjones.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227 |
Since the charge which is very short, passes the muzzle very quickly at exit, the pellets are given essentially the same vector. It's impossible for the gunner to move the gun fast enough to create any measureable spread.
That's the heart of it. The shot is traveling down the bore essentially as compact as a slug. The muzzle would have to be moving fast enough to send the leading pellet in one direction and the last pellet (1" behind?) to clear the muzzle in a diferent direction. The entire shot load (if it averaged 1200 fps) spent only 0.002 seconds in the 30" bore from ignition to exit...moving on average just 1 inch in .00006 second. So, the last pellet leaves the muzzle .00006 second behind the first....how much has the swinging muzzle moved in that time? Help me out here. Targets can fly 50 mph and a swing-thru shooter can start behind one and accelerate thru it, so we can swing a muzzle at least 50 mph (right?). If so, the muzzle moves 880 inches/sec.....that's about 0.05" in the .00006 second delay from the first to last pellet. So, if we shot a pattern at 40yds from a static muzzle, then moved the muzzle 0.05" and shot again, we'd be simulating a 50mph swing on a 40 yd crosser. The pattern center displacement would be 2" (?) Can we locate a pattern center shift to within+/- 1" at 40 yds? I think not. OK, Rocketman.....you owe me a math/logic check. 
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