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Apr 29th, 2024
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hi Phi,
It's always interesting (more or less) to know how things work. However, as some of the others have implied, what would/could you do with the information even if there was a definite answer. IMO, shotstring is not something that can be used to the shooter's advantage and also not something to worry about. It exists but if you shoot behind the target, none of the shot will hit it and if you shoot in front of the target, the shot string goes by so much faster than the target is moving, it will not help you there, either. Shoot the best, hardest, roundest shot you can afford and keep swinging it, like John Anderson says. John Anderson offers excellent advice as always, but in relation to what you've said, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The dynamics of a shotstring change when a swing is applied to the discharge (or so I've been told and I've read). The shot is moving a great deal quicker than the target and if the pattern of a shotgun swinging is wider, taller, thinner than that of the pattern of a shotgun that is simply being pointed and fired like a rifle, then you can certainly play that curve to your advantage.
Last edited by phideaux2003; 07/22/10 05:46 PM.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Hello Phi,
I cannot logically accept that swinging or not swinging a gun will affect the shotstring.
We are not talking of a garden hose here.
JC
P.S.: interesting thread btw. jc
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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ben-t
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ben-t
Unregistered
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I beleive the term "shot string" refers to holes in a sheet of paper that are shot with a gun not moving and the piece of paper that is moving aproximately perpenducular to the shot. That is the target is struck by the first pellets and the following pellets string out across the paper illustrating the string. Using a game bird the string is not going to be illustrated it is just going to go behind the bird. If a slow motion camera is used rather than a moving target board the "string" would show as a swarm of pellets some leading others following. The later is the more accurate illustration of a shot string.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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See Bob Brister The Art and Science of Shotgunning. He did it all with pix decades ago.
shot column heights are what they are. Who GAF? Shot strings are choke effect dependent. and once again Who GAF? Worry about something you can affect.
And if you are at that hose analogy for shot charges/strings you are in some serious trouble and in massive conflict with the physical universe. JIC you might have wondered.
Dr.WtS
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
available by subscription
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983 |
Hi Phi,
It's always interesting (more or less) to know how things work. However, as some of the others have implied, what would/could you do with the information even if there was a definite answer. IMO, shotstring is not something that can be used to the shooter's advantage and also not something to worry about. It exists but if you shoot behind the target, none of the shot will hit it and if you shoot in front of the target, the shot string goes by so much faster than the target is moving, it will not help you there, either. Shoot the best, hardest, roundest shot you can afford and keep swinging it, like John Anderson says. John Anderson offers excellent advice as always, but in relation to what you've said, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The dynamics of a shotstring change when a swing is applied to the discharge (or so I've been told and I've read). The shot is moving a great deal quicker than the target and if the pattern of a shotgun swinging is wider, taller, thinner than that of the pattern of a shotgun that is simply being pointed and fired like a rifle, then you can certainly play that curve to your advantage. You're welcome to disagree with me, especially when you are doing it respectfully. However, my advice to "keep swinging" referred to follow-through, not suggesting that you could bend the shotstring. That is a not uncommon myth but a myth, nevertheless. As WTS said, this is not a garden hose. 
> Jim Legg <
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Ok I understand that no shotgun throws the same pattern twice (true), nor is the perfect pattern ever repeatable (neither achievable nor repeatable). What I'm saying is that there are no major holes in the pattern, nor any major clumping of pellets. AKA even pattern. For the sake of the question, let's assume that all 350 pellets in both the 12 and 20 gauge loads are inside the 30" circle. We would have to specify that both loads had the same choke effect and were captured at the same distance. Note that as we move radially away from the center of the pattern, pellet strikes per square inch vary according to a Rayleigh distribution. However, if we draw a series of concetric washers of the same area around the center of the pattern and divide them into "pie segments," the number of pellet strikes in each segment of each given washer would, ideally, be the same; variation within each washer tells you the quality of the pattern. The number of pellet strikes in a series of segments of increasing radius would have the number of strikes per square inch vary according to a Rayleigh Distribution. If this is not clear, post bck and I'll try again.
Now, because a 1 oz payload in a 20 bore is in a longer shot column as it sits in the shell and in the chamber and as it goes down the barrel, how is the pellet swarm different as opposed to that same 1 oz payload in a 12 bore which is not as tall in the shot column while in the shell and the chamber and the bore? Because of the larger bore size, does a 12 gauge have a shorter (from first pellet to hit the patterning board to last) shot string?
Last edited by Rocketman; 07/23/10 12:12 AM.
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
Rocketman- Excellent explination! Thank you! I understand what makes a pattern "good", if you'll permit me to use the term in a royal sense. What I was most interested in discussing and hearing about was the effect on pellet swarm/shot string (however you want to refer to it) of stacking 1 oz of shot in a narrow, taller shot column (IE 20 bore) and sending it down a barrel and through the choke versus placing the 1 oz of shot in a wider, shorter shot column (IE 12 bore) and doing the same thing with it. Does the choke have more time to effect the pattern with the taller column? Does the shot column passing through the choke quicker because of it's shorter length cause better patterning?
I ask this because as a general rule (we've tried this with 8 different guns and it seems to be universally true with all of them...) that a 20 bore firing an ounce of shot in a proper IC choke has a concentrated center (the inner most washer's if you will) with high pellet counts while the fringes of the pattern are thinner, but when we try it with the 12 bore's with that same 1 oz of shot it patterns very evenly, much like the ideal you describe in your post, damn near every time.
Now please understand that I DO infact know that different guns pattern different loads differently and that no two patterns are alike and what knot, but what I'm asking is this...
Does a "light for gauge" payload pattern more evenly as a rule or is this just some anomaly that just can't be explained?
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 192 |
Hi Phi,
It's always interesting (more or less) to know how things work. However, as some of the others have implied, what would/could you do with the information even if there was a definite answer. IMO, shotstring is not something that can be used to the shooter's advantage and also not something to worry about. It exists but if you shoot behind the target, none of the shot will hit it and if you shoot in front of the target, the shot string goes by so much faster than the target is moving, it will not help you there, either. Shoot the best, hardest, roundest shot you can afford and keep swinging it, like John Anderson says. John Anderson offers excellent advice as always, but in relation to what you've said, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The dynamics of a shotstring change when a swing is applied to the discharge (or so I've been told and I've read). The shot is moving a great deal quicker than the target and if the pattern of a shotgun swinging is wider, taller, thinner than that of the pattern of a shotgun that is simply being pointed and fired like a rifle, then you can certainly play that curve to your advantage. You're welcome to disagree with me, especially when you are doing it respectfully. However, my advice to "keep swinging" referred to follow-through, not suggesting that you could bend the shotstring. That is a not uncommon myth but a myth, nevertheless. As WTS said, this is not a garden hose. Ok Jim, can we talk about that? I was raised on the "water hose" theory and I've always used it to assist me mentally with follow through, but I've also been under the impression that one could effect shot string by the swing of the gun. Can you explain that a little further? I'm going to check Greener's book. I seem to remember something about it in there too.
American by birth, Texan by grace of God.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Hello Jaime,
Follow-through, follow-through. Most important, as in golf!
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983 |
You can always tell a Texan,,,,,,,,,,,but not much. The shotstring does not even exist until after the shot has left the muzzle, so how could moving the muzzle (after it's gone) affect it?
The impression you've been under is simply wrong. As shotgunners, we are plagued with myths, false impressions and old wives' tales. This is just one more of them.
> Jim Legg <
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