doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com True "Pigeon Guns"....

Interesting stuff Dr.Drew.

Von Lengerke, gun dealer and shooter, was there from the beginning for sure, Drew. His stamp is on one of the early programs in my collection. As a very important importer and dealer in high grade domestic guns, it is hard to pin his name to any particular brand of gun. However, he got very wealthy on his relationship with Francotte. It seems like nine out of ten early Francottes found in this country have the VL&D logo on the barrels.

Until about 1900 the same 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 - 3 3/4 dram loads were used for Pigeons and Inanimate Targets.
See http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_333g89dwqg8

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1902/VOL_40_NO_04/SL4004014.pdf
Some of the crack shots are discovering that "pigeon loads" are not necessary for long distance flying target shooting. When distance handicap was first tried many of the experts came out with big charges of powder. Lately the work of W. R. Crosby at 22 yards on the stiffest kind of shooting has astonished the followers of trap shooting. It will surprise many to learn that Crosby’s load was only 3 drams of "New E.C." powder, when he won high average at Cincinnati recently, shooting from 22 yards on the back mark, in a field of 150 crack shots, he had his old Smith gun and Winchester Leader shells.



Guns used at the 1899 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305013.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305014.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305016.pdf

Guns: Parker 78, Smith 56, Greener 31, Francotte 24, Winchester 12, Remington 11, Cashmore 10, Lefever 6, Purdey 5, Scott 6, Colt 4, Daly 3. Stannard 3, Boss 2, Richards 2, Baker 2, Forehand, Syracuse, Clabrough, Renette, Abbey, Spencer & Webley 1 each.

Smith: C.M. Grimm, Charles Young, W.B. Leffingwell, Fred Gilbert (Gilbert switched to a Parker after the 1899 GAH), F.P. Stannard, J.J. Sumpter, J.S. Fanning, Fred Quimby, J.J. Hallowell (U.M.C. Co.), “Wanda” and Milt Lindsley, Wanda Shattuck, Fen Cooper, H.C. Hershey (Hazard Powder Co.)

Parker: Neaf Apgar, John Parker (Peters Cartridge Co.), Wilbur F. Parker, A.W. duBray, H.D. Kirkover, H.E. Buckwalter, L.W. Stoddard, Harold Money, C.W. Budd, J.D. Gay, George Loomis, O.R. Dickey, Ed Bingham, R. Merrill, C.M. Powers, Howard Ridge (Laflin & Rand Powder Co.)

"E. A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23, which was a very nice performance."

Winchester Repeater: J.A.R. & Dave Elliott, Ed Banks (“E. C.” and Schultze Powder Co.), Ralph Trimble (WRAC)

Cashmore: T.A. Marshall, Dr. W.F. Carver

Francotte: Fred Coleman, Paul North (Cleveland Target Co.), J., C., & O. Von Lengerke

Remington: R.O. Heikes, Col. A.G. Courtney, Frank Parmelee, B. Le Roy (Remington, DuPont and U. M. C.) E.D. Fulford, George Roll, Captain J. A. H. Dressel (U.M.C. and president of the Interstate Association)

Greener: Capt. A.W. Money

Baker: "William Crosby, of the Baker Gun Company, made a good showing with his $30 Baker hammerless, killing 24 out of 25 in the big event, and 15 straight in the Nitro handicap. "Billy" made last year’s record with 98 straight kills."

Not sure when this rule changed, but a true Pigeon Gun had to weigh less than 8 pounds.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 as follows:
"We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige."

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).
Capt. Money shot a Smith, Greener, and Parker.