doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com True "Pigeon Guns"....

Jim, you are right, a trap gun can be indistinguishable from a pigeon gun. However, it seems like the safetyless double gun was no longer popular when clay targets replaced pigeons as targets. I have no idea why later double trap guns seemed to have safeties. I always thought that there was more money at stake at a pigeon shoot so it was a bit more important to have the gun fire every time.

Murph, I think you are exactly right. The whole betting and prize culture surrounding the ring drove the safety issue. It is also my observation, that the safetyless angle seems more usual in American rather than European guns. My Cashmore Nitro has a non-automatic safety and the catalog image I have touting its ring accomplishments shows a safety equipped gun.

Drew: The first "International Clay Pigeon Tournament" (or inanimate target tournament) was run by Geo. Ligowsky's and J. E. Blume's National Shooting Association in Chicago in 1884; the second International Tournament was in NOLA in 1885. Ligowsky tried to sell stock in his association, but was unsuccessful. Ligowsky's NSA was formed to promote his clay targets. Organized trap shooting needed a broader base.

C. W. Dimmick of United States Cartridge Co. and other manufacturers' reps (including Winchester and UMC) founded the American Shooting Association in 1888, and Ligowsky's group gave way to the power. S. A. "Tuck" Tucker, Parker's sales agent (and owner of the AAH that started this thread) along with Capt. A. W. duBray (then a sergeant in the U. S. army) were consulting board members of the newly-formed ASA and "Tuck" wrote the handicap rules. Live birds were still the popular targets with slight but growing interest in clays.

The ASA dissolved in 1892 and, in turn, the Interstate Manufacturers and Dealers Assn.--"Interstate Assn."--took over organized trap shooting. The Interstate Assn. quickly organized the first Grand American Handicap at live birds scheduled for spring 1893. Twenty-one shooters paid $25 to compete. The GAH at live birds went until 1902 at Kansas City with about 450 contestants. The GAH at targets was started by the Interstate Assn. in 1900 with 74 entries (the 1900 GAH at live birds drew 224 entries).

Until 1919, the Interstate Assn. basically owned and managed trap shooting as a sport in order to showcase its products and to promote the interests of its owners: The Manufacturers and Dealers. In 1919 the Interstate Assn. board (including Wilbur F. Parker Jr.) met in New York, and reorganized as the American Trapshooting Assn. Then in 1920 the industry bigwigs handed organized trapshooting over to a committee of amateurs who re-named it the Amateur Trapshooting Association--"The ATA"--which exists to this day and continues to sanction the Grand. Lot of history here...

Harvey McMurchy was known by his fellow knights of the trigger as "McDuff." According to Shooting & Fishing (August 1888), "Mr L. C. Smith, a Syracuse, N. Y., gun maker, apprehending McDuff's worth as a shot, his intelligence, and his experience as a traveling man, negotiated with him, and after a personal interview he was appointed a traveling representative of the L. C. Smith Gun." McDuff worked most of his adult life for the Smith Gun and retired to Florida to live out his retirement on a river fishing. When he retired, the articles in the shooting publications never mentioned the Smith Gun, just that he was a long-time employee of an unnamed gun manufacturer.

Once the amateurs took over the sport they quickly marginalized the pros; mentioning their sponsors or employers by name became a no-no. And we all know what happened to Jim Thorpe when the Olympic committee found out that he had played baseball for $50. Professional shooters likewise had the pox upon them; the punitive amateurism was so bad that janitors and factory workers at Parker Bros. were classified as pros, even if they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside, because--shame! shame!--they worked within the guns and ammo industry. RIP McDuff where ever you are... EDM

Thank you Ed. Here's my source.

Sporting Life Feb 11, 1911
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1911/VOL_56_NO_23/SL5623010.PDF

JOHN PHILIP SOUSA From London, England, "Sketch"
FIRST TARGET TOURNEY.
About 1880 the first of saucer-shaped targets was thrown at a tournament held in Springfield, Illlinois. The disc was known as the Ligowsky clay pigeon, and it very quickly succeeded as a test of marksman ship the glass ball then in vogue as a flying target.
The first Interstate event was held in New Orleans a short time after the Springfield event, and attracted a large field. Harvey McMurchy, now one of the firm of the Hunter Arms Company, was the winner. Thirty years later, in 1910, in the Grand American Handicap at Chicago, he scored ninety-nine out of one hundred, proving that art is of more avail than youth, and that a man of sixty or seventy has the same chance as a man of twenty or thirty.

BTW: Inanimate Target Shooting was a bit different back then

1st "E.C." Cup 1896
The match at that time consisted of 100 targets, unknown angles, from known traps; 100 targets, unknown traps and known angles (commonly called expert rules - At expert rules, one man up in the centre of five traps, pulled unknown, according to an indicator); and 50 pair of doubles.


The Interstate Association’s First Annual GAH at Targets June 1900
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1900/VOL_35_NO_14/SL3514012.pdf
"The traps were placed inside the live bird grounds, Nos. 2 and 3 being used. At No. 1 score a Magautrap was placed, at No. 2 a set of three expert traps, on the Sergeant system; at No. 3 a Magautrap; at No. 4 a set of five expert traps, throwing unknown angles. Nos. 1, 2 and 3 were arranged on the flat, or underground plan, without an inch of screen in the way. No. 4, the five expert trap set, had a low screen, and the shooting platform was almost on a level with the top of it. At the first three sets the targets were seen almost from the moment they left the traps, coming, as they did, directly out of the ground. This gave a quick sight, but to many men a deceptive one, as they were inclined to fire too quickly, often undershooting. Blue Rock targets were used, and a good, fair flight was thrown at a uniform speed and angle. Owing to the four different sets of traps, each with a different background, the scores were not high."

OWD,

turning to your original question I ordered in 2007 from AYA a gun that could be used as a pigeon gun, a model Nº53. The real Pigeon Gun from AYA is the Nº56 but cost precluded me from ordering it. I had to make a compromise specifying a gun that could be used as a pheasant/pigeon gun, light enough to carry, strong enough to withstand heavy charges: 29" barrels, overbored to .740, it is a heavy framed sidelock, with side clips, third Purdey bite, swamped rib, straight stock, automatic safety, 15" LOP, 1.5"DAC, 2.5"DAH.

Overboring and light stock made it lighter than expected: 6.8 lb. instead of 7.25 lb (with Galazan handguard marks 7 lb). On the other hand it prints 66% Right Barrel and 75% Left Barrel at 40 yards with 1.125 oz. charges of #6 pellets. It fits me well, points centered at the board; a little stock bending will eventually pattern a recomended 70-30%.

So far I have used it for pheasants with good performance, I will try it first time at the live pigeon ring this Southern Winter.

I've often wondered why Beretta did not offer their 471 with 30" or 32" barrels at about 7.5lbs. It seems it would have broadened their market considerably, at least they would have sold one to me. Same with the Ruger Gold Label.

I had a spectacular, unmolested Walter Betts boxlock pigeon gun a few years ago. It did have a safety, the gun was 1920s vintage. 32" barrel 7 1/2 pound gun with lovely wood.

Thanks, Drew and Ed for the information on the early shoots. Ed is correct about the date of the first "Interstate Tournament". Sousa's recollection of "around 1880" probably referred to the first clay targets thrown at a tournament at Springfield, Ohio, not the second International Tournament at New Orleans in 1885. I have the original program from the 1885 New Orleans shoot and almost got to purchase the program for the 1884 tournament. Lucky for me, all the participants and winners for the 1884 tournament were listed in the 1885 New Orleans program. The names of participants in these tournaments is a Who's Who of the shooting and gunmaking world of the day. As I recall, Fred Kimble was a referee at one of the shoots. I won't presume to develop a modern sports comparison to that interesting fact.

Thank you Bill. Another source of confusion:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1914/VOL_63_NO_02/SL6302019.pdf
Justus von Lengerke, a noted New York sportsman, was one of the first men to shoot at artificial targets in this country. With Harvey McMurchy and Andy Meaders he competed in the first Ligowsky tournament at New Orleans.