doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com True "Pigeon Guns"....

Anyone out there own a real British Pigeon or Live Bird gun?

By this I mean a gun proofed for 1 1/4oz loads, with tight choke in both bbls, no safety, and extractors.

Or maybe with a different configuration, but with solid evidence that the gun was made for the pigeon ring?

What about American stuff? I know this Parker is a documented Live Bird gun:

http://www.ivorybeads.com/site/default.a...&FSID3=2923

Any others out there?

Thanks

OWD

BTW: wasn't there an article in SSM about this?

At that price it appears it's still a good gun for a "pigeon".

I agree, that's alot of money for an American boxlock.

a very good friend has a H&H royal,circa 1896, that letters with 3 sets of barrels. 2 are for pigeon, the 3rd a field set, all pretty tightly choked. The gun had a safety and at the owners request I removed and built a filler plate. It is a lovely gun.

I have three which I use regularly; one each English, German, and US. The English gun is a pre-WWI William Cashmore "Nitro". The Nitro's were purpose built pigeon guns and were designed around a special 1 1/4 ounce 3 1/4 inch pigeon load. They utilize a unique action with exterior locks. This one is a 7 1/4 pound 30" gun choked F&F and shoots 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce Kents like a hammer.

The second is a 32" F&F German Guild Gun with target rib, reinforced muzzels, and a gold pigeon on the trigger guard (with a bunch of other high relief stuff going on). It has an unusual very long, semi-beavertail forend. It weighs approximately 7 3/4 pounds. It shoots 80+% patterns with just about anything and was completed in March of 1939. Built as a competition gun, it was never equipped with cheekrest or swivels.

The third is a safety-less LC Smith Specialty Grade with two sets of factory barrels (lettered). The pigeon barrels are 32" F&F with a target rib. This gun has a Hunter One trigger that has never failed to make the thing go bang. Unlike most Smith trap guns, this live bird gun has a factory straight stock (minimal drop) and a splinter forend. It too shoots tighter than any modern gun which I own. It is an early 20's gun.

They are all very similar in weight and drop refecting the common conventions which were required in the ring. Great guns which I use regularly.

hideous recoil pad. forty five grand for that?

The length of pull now is listed at 14 1/2" so I suspect the stock was drastically shortened at some point in time. The dilemma here to me is live with it the way it is or get the stock replaced with one of appropriate length.
Jim

I have a very nice German Greifelt, made in Suhl in the 20's I believe, a 12 gauge sidelock hammer gun with nitro proofed 3 ring Krupp barrels that are very thick walled, so it will easily accept heavy loads, and .060 chokes in both barrels. It has wonderful small tight English scroll engraving all over, excellent old dark well figured wood, straight grip, a great gun. I donno what else this gun would have been built for except very high birds or long distance birds of some type.

This particular gun has been featured in SSM and the DGJ, and is in two books (cover of one).

This Parker Bros. AAH Pigeon Gun has been used in various pigeon rings by myself and Destry, himself, has pulled the trigger a few times. It was state-of-the-art when made in 1896, being the 24th or 25th Whitworth fluid compressed steel barreled shotgun made in the USA. Although S/N 83550 was the quintessential pigeon gun circa 1890s-WWI, times change and few SxS's are seen nowadays at live bird events because of the money involved. The absence of a safety was not definitive: The preceding S/N 83549 has a pistol grip and a safety, and of the 20-or-so of these guns I've seen and handled, most have a safety.

The first few year's production of the AAH Pigeon Gun were marketed at live bird events by the S/N 83550 gun's owner, S. A. "Tuck" Tucker, and also Capt. A. W. duBray, who had an AA Pigeon Gun (one of 5 hammer guns made in this grade, thus no "H"). Soon, however, AAH became a vanity grade, and next lost its identity as a dedicated live bird gun once they were offered in bore sizes other than 12 gauge. About 260 of AAH-grade guns were made from 1895 until WWII. The 28-gauge Parker Gun made by Conn. Shotgun for Remington @ $49,000 (or more) is AAHE grade (H = hammerless; E = ejectors).

As to the pad, some prior owner who used the gun for its original purpose did what he though was right at the time. Many of the knights of the trigger back when pigeon shooting was the national sport were large for the time, over six-foot, 200 lbs plus. Pictures I have of "Tuck" show him to be of medium build and probably 5-foot-eight or less (DuBray was 5-foot-five). The way the pad is attached to the stock on a plastic spacer probably shows the original SSBP pull to be the standard 14 1/8 to 14 1/4-inch. I had often thought of having a leather cover installed over the hard rubber pad (strictly cosmetic), which is a $250 job; as it is, the pull and drop suit me @ 5-foot-10 and 185#.

As to removing and replacing the original stock as one of the usual suspects suggests (rather than having a leather covering installed on the pad), all he needs to do is send Ivory Beads a good check for the appropriate amount--doing such an ill-advised procedure accrues to he who owns the gun. All the rest is just bluster. EDM

Hmmmm..... What's Ed got over his shoulder at this cold weather Pigeon shoot --



My Pigeon Gun is a Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox, C-Grade, 32-inch Krupp barrels with 2 7/8 inch chambers and .034" choke each side. Straight grip stock, 14 7/16 inch length-of-pull, 1 7/16 inch drop-at-comb, 2 3/8 inch drop-at-heel, weight 7 pounds 13 ounces --

My long lost friend, a major in the Marines and college professor, had a vh Parker with a straight stock,no safety or dolls head and a checkered trigger guard tang. He always maintained that it was a "pigeon gun" but at the time I did not really understand the term.The gun was sold when he went on active duty and I did not have the $275 to buy it at the time. Sure would like to see it again but the guy who now owns it is more or less a hermit and does not take kindly to people in general,let alone someone asking about his guns.

Obsessed,
I have a Boswell BL 12-b 3" gun with 32" barrels (M/F)and weighs 8 pounds. The rib is file-cut, has two ivory beads and a safety. The proof is for 1 1/2 loads. The Boswell ledger page (dated 12-15-1922) describes it as a "12 Bore A&D 3" pigeon gun."
Steve

I have a Frank Malin Victoria Grade "Hurlingham" pigeon gun circa 1980, on consignment to William Larkin Moore. It has not yet appeared on their website, but it has had a Miller trigger and Briley chokes added. Also has a neat "hidden" pin allowing the locks to be hand detatchable and rose and scroll engraving. Call them for further info. (If anyone who sees this reply buys, I'll happily fork over the $10).

I have an H&H pigeon gun that I sent to H&H last week to sell on consignment and use toward an order. I'm not posting this to promote the gun. Rather, I am posting this in the interest of such guns as was requested by the person who began the topic. I happened to find some pictures I took a while back so I am sharing those.

This is a 'Royal' Hammerless Ejector, "Modele de Luxe". If memory serves me, the barrels are 30" F-F and 28" F-M. The engraving on both sides is pigeons and more pigeons and even more pigeons. The gun has the hidden third bite (with both barrels), bushed strikers (extras in the white jar), and arcaded fences. The action is a little larger than the regular 12 gauge 'Royal' and the gun weighs about 8 pounds.

Proofed for 3" chambers and 1-3/8oz of #6 shot and built robust to shoot it all day long.

My favourite Pigeon gun,that I wish could talk,is an E.M.Reilly bar-in wood 12 bore with Whitworth steel barrels circa 1885 with 2 3/4" chambers,30" mod. and full and nitro proofed. It has a large capital "B" in 24 carat gold where the oval would normally be and was purported to have belonged to the Duke of Bedford,who was an avid pigeon shot. Without documentation, however, it could just as easily be Bob the Postman....

I have an Ithaca Lewis gun marked "pigeon gun" on one barrel and krupp steel on the other. Has a typical Ithaca safety and extractors, 2 & 3/4 inch chambers and 30 inch barrels choked IM & IM.

I had it totally refinished several years ago; I got for almost nothing because it was in terrible shape.

I once owned a W&C Scott Monte Carlo B ejector gun built in 1892 as a live pigeon gun. It was later rebarreled by the maker with 26" steel tubes with tight chokes and 1-1/4 ounce proofs. It had the original very heavy buttstock when I bought it, and I had the wood cut down to reduce the weight to 6lb, 10 oz. After opening the chokes to .008 and .025, I hunted with it for many years until I found a true left hand gun.

I have one here for a client - William Powell best quality sidelock ejector with leather case and two sets of barrels, semi-pistil grip stock and beavertail forend. Barrels are 30" with flat filed broad rib. Weight is over 8lbs. The gun has a tird bite and side clips to the fences.

I took it to shoot DTL last week. It has too much drop for me but once compensated for did a great job of busting most of the 75 clays I shot at in succession, though the front arm did get a bit tired.

The gun was made in the 1950s and has almost all the original finish. The rubber butt pad was perished so I fitted a leather-covered new one.

I had a 'Custom Built'(marked on rib) Winchester Model 21, 32" VR, IM/F with shadow line cheekpiece and 'Hession' forearm. It did have a safety so might just have been a Trap but the IM/F would lead me to believe otherwise. I was never able to trace the provanace on the gun. You can read about it and view the pictures here http://www.model21shotgun.com/showthread.php?13-12-Gauge-32-quot-VR-Custom-Built .
The stock is simply magnificant and must be seen!
I shot it on Sporting Clays for a couple of years before trading it.-Dick

Quite a few of the British Pigeon Guns did have safety catches fitted. I own a W.J.Jeffrey hammer gun with 30" barrels and 2 3/4" chambers and broad file cut rib. Once owned a similar one with 32" barrels by Thomas Wild and have a Midland Gun Co. boxlock on which the jury is still out; single trigger, non-ejector, 3" chambers, ivory bead foresight, bores 7/8ths., 7/8th., but with only 28" barrels and a game style rib and safety catch. It is stocked a little high and does give a good account of itself at DTL. Not sure what the buyers true intentions for this gun were. Too nice and finely engraved for a wildfowling gun unless it was intended for inland goose flighting maybe where it was never likely to encounter harsh conditions. Lagopus.....

Oops! Another "hideous recoil pad"! And on a Fox gun that was purpose built to actually shoot heavy loads, day in and day out in the pigeon ring. Some people of tender sensibilities risk going blind looking at such an abomination. What is this world coming to? How could the long-deceased owners of dedicated trap guns built more than a century ago have been so insensitive to the knee-jerk emotions of 21st century Internet gun cranks?

Anyway, Dave, could you e-mail me the picture of the four "usual suspects" to...you should have my address. I wish I'd have known about this picture when I was winding up the image portfolio for Parker Guns: Shooting Flying... EDM

L.C. Smith 16g No. 2 Pigeon gun



No safety



Pigeon on the left lockplate rather than the usual quail

The problem with that AAH Parker is not so much that it has an ADDED pad (which is atrocious considering you-know-what was cut off) but that it also has a bunch of ugly spacers. A $45K gun should have its head held up a little higher than that.

What the owner did 100 years ago is not so much the issue as what the current owner thinks a modern buyer should swallow without a grimace. In the world of rare guns, they tend to fall into two categories - those that had stupid shit done to them and those that didn't. The AAH unfortunately fits into the latter category whether we like it or not.

If I were selling that gun, maybe I'd still ask $45K - but I'd at least show some humility and be reticent over the stock's condition.

I've watched Ivory Beads for years....Pigeon looking is not uncommon.

How about a 1920 12 bore J.P. Sauer #2 hammer gun:30" barrels, 70 mm chambers and so marked, chokes .044 and .048, standard stock configuration with cheek piece. Would this set up constitute a pigeon gun? Incidentally, original owner purchased gun in Italy. Wasn't Italy a hot spot for live pigeon in those days?
Thanks,
Jorge

Advice regarding pigeon guns and shooting
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_310ccmnrphm

Harvey McMurchy was responsible for the Smith Pigeon grade gun
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_343dn6phncv

and the top guns at the traps
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_311kp75d7hd

A Parker pigeon gun is usually considered a long barrel, tight choke gun without a safety. However, there is another feature that was considered an added feature on a gun used for flyer competition. Many savvy customers asked that their Parker pigeon gun be made without extension rib to facilitate reloading. I'm sure it was the history of competition shooters' requests for the "no extension rib" that influenced the same design in the single barrel trap model.

Quote
"A Parker pigeon gun is usually considered a long barrel, tight choke gun without a safety"

Would someone please explain to us uninformed souls how this description above differs from the description of a gun ordered for trap shooting?
Jim

Trap and pigeon guns have a lot of commonality and are frequently difficult or impossible to sort with absolute finality. The trap gun must be designed for high volume shooting whereas the pigeon must withstand heavy loads. Often, the same design features will interchange. On average, trap guns may be stocked a little higher while pigeon guns are more likely to have a broad, flat rib and often have a higher grade of finish.

Both types are subject to considerable variation.

Harvey “Prince Mac” McMurchy was a L.C. Smith traveling representative and professional trap shooter who won the first Interstate Inanimate Target (Ligowsky) Tournament held in New Orleans in 1880.
The last GAH at Live Birds was in 1902 and Hirschy, Spencer and Heikes were one, two, three all using L. C. Smith guns. Spencer then changed to a Winchester Repeater and Heikes to a Remington Double then a Remington Autoloader. Live bird competitions of course continued.
The name shooters used the same double gun for both until the SBTs and Repeaters took over Trap shooting.

Jim, you are right, a trap gun can be indistinguishable from a pigeon gun. However, it seems like the safetyless double gun was no longer popular when clay targets replaced pigeons as targets. I have no idea why later double trap guns seemed to have safeties. I always thought that there was more money at stake at a pigeon shoot so it was a bit more important to have the gun fire every time.

Murph, I think you are exactly right. The whole betting and prize culture surrounding the ring drove the safety issue. It is also my observation, that the safetyless angle seems more usual in American rather than European guns. My Cashmore Nitro has a non-automatic safety and the catalog image I have touting its ring accomplishments shows a safety equipped gun.

Drew: The first "International Clay Pigeon Tournament" (or inanimate target tournament) was run by Geo. Ligowsky's and J. E. Blume's National Shooting Association in Chicago in 1884; the second International Tournament was in NOLA in 1885. Ligowsky tried to sell stock in his association, but was unsuccessful. Ligowsky's NSA was formed to promote his clay targets. Organized trap shooting needed a broader base.

C. W. Dimmick of United States Cartridge Co. and other manufacturers' reps (including Winchester and UMC) founded the American Shooting Association in 1888, and Ligowsky's group gave way to the power. S. A. "Tuck" Tucker, Parker's sales agent (and owner of the AAH that started this thread) along with Capt. A. W. duBray (then a sergeant in the U. S. army) were consulting board members of the newly-formed ASA and "Tuck" wrote the handicap rules. Live birds were still the popular targets with slight but growing interest in clays.

The ASA dissolved in 1892 and, in turn, the Interstate Manufacturers and Dealers Assn.--"Interstate Assn."--took over organized trap shooting. The Interstate Assn. quickly organized the first Grand American Handicap at live birds scheduled for spring 1893. Twenty-one shooters paid $25 to compete. The GAH at live birds went until 1902 at Kansas City with about 450 contestants. The GAH at targets was started by the Interstate Assn. in 1900 with 74 entries (the 1900 GAH at live birds drew 224 entries).

Until 1919, the Interstate Assn. basically owned and managed trap shooting as a sport in order to showcase its products and to promote the interests of its owners: The Manufacturers and Dealers. In 1919 the Interstate Assn. board (including Wilbur F. Parker Jr.) met in New York, and reorganized as the American Trapshooting Assn. Then in 1920 the industry bigwigs handed organized trapshooting over to a committee of amateurs who re-named it the Amateur Trapshooting Association--"The ATA"--which exists to this day and continues to sanction the Grand. Lot of history here...

Harvey McMurchy was known by his fellow knights of the trigger as "McDuff." According to Shooting & Fishing (August 1888), "Mr L. C. Smith, a Syracuse, N. Y., gun maker, apprehending McDuff's worth as a shot, his intelligence, and his experience as a traveling man, negotiated with him, and after a personal interview he was appointed a traveling representative of the L. C. Smith Gun." McDuff worked most of his adult life for the Smith Gun and retired to Florida to live out his retirement on a river fishing. When he retired, the articles in the shooting publications never mentioned the Smith Gun, just that he was a long-time employee of an unnamed gun manufacturer.

Once the amateurs took over the sport they quickly marginalized the pros; mentioning their sponsors or employers by name became a no-no. And we all know what happened to Jim Thorpe when the Olympic committee found out that he had played baseball for $50. Professional shooters likewise had the pox upon them; the punitive amateurism was so bad that janitors and factory workers at Parker Bros. were classified as pros, even if they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside, because--shame! shame!--they worked within the guns and ammo industry. RIP McDuff where ever you are... EDM

Thank you Ed. Here's my source.

Sporting Life Feb 11, 1911
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1911/VOL_56_NO_23/SL5623010.PDF

JOHN PHILIP SOUSA From London, England, "Sketch"
FIRST TARGET TOURNEY.
About 1880 the first of saucer-shaped targets was thrown at a tournament held in Springfield, Illlinois. The disc was known as the Ligowsky clay pigeon, and it very quickly succeeded as a test of marksman ship the glass ball then in vogue as a flying target.
The first Interstate event was held in New Orleans a short time after the Springfield event, and attracted a large field. Harvey McMurchy, now one of the firm of the Hunter Arms Company, was the winner. Thirty years later, in 1910, in the Grand American Handicap at Chicago, he scored ninety-nine out of one hundred, proving that art is of more avail than youth, and that a man of sixty or seventy has the same chance as a man of twenty or thirty.

BTW: Inanimate Target Shooting was a bit different back then

1st "E.C." Cup 1896
The match at that time consisted of 100 targets, unknown angles, from known traps; 100 targets, unknown traps and known angles (commonly called expert rules - At expert rules, one man up in the centre of five traps, pulled unknown, according to an indicator); and 50 pair of doubles.


The Interstate Association’s First Annual GAH at Targets June 1900
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1900/VOL_35_NO_14/SL3514012.pdf
"The traps were placed inside the live bird grounds, Nos. 2 and 3 being used. At No. 1 score a Magautrap was placed, at No. 2 a set of three expert traps, on the Sergeant system; at No. 3 a Magautrap; at No. 4 a set of five expert traps, throwing unknown angles. Nos. 1, 2 and 3 were arranged on the flat, or underground plan, without an inch of screen in the way. No. 4, the five expert trap set, had a low screen, and the shooting platform was almost on a level with the top of it. At the first three sets the targets were seen almost from the moment they left the traps, coming, as they did, directly out of the ground. This gave a quick sight, but to many men a deceptive one, as they were inclined to fire too quickly, often undershooting. Blue Rock targets were used, and a good, fair flight was thrown at a uniform speed and angle. Owing to the four different sets of traps, each with a different background, the scores were not high."

OWD,

turning to your original question I ordered in 2007 from AYA a gun that could be used as a pigeon gun, a model Nº53. The real Pigeon Gun from AYA is the Nº56 but cost precluded me from ordering it. I had to make a compromise specifying a gun that could be used as a pheasant/pigeon gun, light enough to carry, strong enough to withstand heavy charges: 29" barrels, overbored to .740, it is a heavy framed sidelock, with side clips, third Purdey bite, swamped rib, straight stock, automatic safety, 15" LOP, 1.5"DAC, 2.5"DAH.

Overboring and light stock made it lighter than expected: 6.8 lb. instead of 7.25 lb (with Galazan handguard marks 7 lb). On the other hand it prints 66% Right Barrel and 75% Left Barrel at 40 yards with 1.125 oz. charges of #6 pellets. It fits me well, points centered at the board; a little stock bending will eventually pattern a recomended 70-30%.

So far I have used it for pheasants with good performance, I will try it first time at the live pigeon ring this Southern Winter.

I've often wondered why Beretta did not offer their 471 with 30" or 32" barrels at about 7.5lbs. It seems it would have broadened their market considerably, at least they would have sold one to me. Same with the Ruger Gold Label.

I had a spectacular, unmolested Walter Betts boxlock pigeon gun a few years ago. It did have a safety, the gun was 1920s vintage. 32" barrel 7 1/2 pound gun with lovely wood.

Thanks, Drew and Ed for the information on the early shoots. Ed is correct about the date of the first "Interstate Tournament". Sousa's recollection of "around 1880" probably referred to the first clay targets thrown at a tournament at Springfield, Ohio, not the second International Tournament at New Orleans in 1885. I have the original program from the 1885 New Orleans shoot and almost got to purchase the program for the 1884 tournament. Lucky for me, all the participants and winners for the 1884 tournament were listed in the 1885 New Orleans program. The names of participants in these tournaments is a Who's Who of the shooting and gunmaking world of the day. As I recall, Fred Kimble was a referee at one of the shoots. I won't presume to develop a modern sports comparison to that interesting fact.

Thank you Bill. Another source of confusion:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1914/VOL_63_NO_02/SL6302019.pdf
Justus von Lengerke, a noted New York sportsman, was one of the first men to shoot at artificial targets in this country. With Harvey McMurchy and Andy Meaders he competed in the first Ligowsky tournament at New Orleans.

Interesting stuff Dr.Drew.

Von Lengerke, gun dealer and shooter, was there from the beginning for sure, Drew. His stamp is on one of the early programs in my collection. As a very important importer and dealer in high grade domestic guns, it is hard to pin his name to any particular brand of gun. However, he got very wealthy on his relationship with Francotte. It seems like nine out of ten early Francottes found in this country have the VL&D logo on the barrels.

Until about 1900 the same 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 - 3 3/4 dram loads were used for Pigeons and Inanimate Targets.
See http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_333g89dwqg8

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1902/VOL_40_NO_04/SL4004014.pdf
Some of the crack shots are discovering that "pigeon loads" are not necessary for long distance flying target shooting. When distance handicap was first tried many of the experts came out with big charges of powder. Lately the work of W. R. Crosby at 22 yards on the stiffest kind of shooting has astonished the followers of trap shooting. It will surprise many to learn that Crosby’s load was only 3 drams of "New E.C." powder, when he won high average at Cincinnati recently, shooting from 22 yards on the back mark, in a field of 150 crack shots, he had his old Smith gun and Winchester Leader shells.



Guns used at the 1899 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305013.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305014.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305016.pdf

Guns: Parker 78, Smith 56, Greener 31, Francotte 24, Winchester 12, Remington 11, Cashmore 10, Lefever 6, Purdey 5, Scott 6, Colt 4, Daly 3. Stannard 3, Boss 2, Richards 2, Baker 2, Forehand, Syracuse, Clabrough, Renette, Abbey, Spencer & Webley 1 each.

Smith: C.M. Grimm, Charles Young, W.B. Leffingwell, Fred Gilbert (Gilbert switched to a Parker after the 1899 GAH), F.P. Stannard, J.J. Sumpter, J.S. Fanning, Fred Quimby, J.J. Hallowell (U.M.C. Co.), “Wanda” and Milt Lindsley, Wanda Shattuck, Fen Cooper, H.C. Hershey (Hazard Powder Co.)

Parker: Neaf Apgar, John Parker (Peters Cartridge Co.), Wilbur F. Parker, A.W. duBray, H.D. Kirkover, H.E. Buckwalter, L.W. Stoddard, Harold Money, C.W. Budd, J.D. Gay, George Loomis, O.R. Dickey, Ed Bingham, R. Merrill, C.M. Powers, Howard Ridge (Laflin & Rand Powder Co.)

"E. A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23, which was a very nice performance."

Winchester Repeater: J.A.R. & Dave Elliott, Ed Banks (“E. C.” and Schultze Powder Co.), Ralph Trimble (WRAC)

Cashmore: T.A. Marshall, Dr. W.F. Carver

Francotte: Fred Coleman, Paul North (Cleveland Target Co.), J., C., & O. Von Lengerke

Remington: R.O. Heikes, Col. A.G. Courtney, Frank Parmelee, B. Le Roy (Remington, DuPont and U. M. C.) E.D. Fulford, George Roll, Captain J. A. H. Dressel (U.M.C. and president of the Interstate Association)

Greener: Capt. A.W. Money

Baker: "William Crosby, of the Baker Gun Company, made a good showing with his $30 Baker hammerless, killing 24 out of 25 in the big event, and 15 straight in the Nitro handicap. "Billy" made last year’s record with 98 straight kills."

Not sure when this rule changed, but a true Pigeon Gun had to weigh less than 8 pounds.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 as follows:
"We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige."

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).
Capt. Money shot a Smith, Greener, and Parker.