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#188771 - 05/14/10 11:29 AM German Drilling Some Info Needed
GermanDrilling Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, United States
[url= [img:center]http://df4217.tripod.com/GermanGun.html [img:center]http://df4217.tripod.com/GermanGun.html[/img]


Hi! I'm searching for information on a German Drilling. It's in great shape and I'm assuming it to be worth $2000 - to $5000 dollars from what I've seen and learned on the internet so far. I need to know the maker and what the symbols mean. I have a total of 20 pictures I took of the gun, but it doesn't do it justice. It's a beautiful gun, and I have a stake in the bidding on it.

If you want to see larger, clearer pictures of the marks, just let me know and I'll email them too you since I can't seem to add a picture on here.

I'm looking at an SS D marking. A G with a crown over it, some type of design, a U with a crown over it, an SS mark, and what appears to be an N with an M over it.

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#188776 - 05/14/10 12:07 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: GermanDrilling]
bavarianbrit Offline
Sidelock
*

Registered: 02/25/10
Posts: 176
Loc: Bavaria, Germany
I have three drillings so send me some pics I might know.
Regards
Martin


Edited by bavarianbrit (05/15/10 06:55 AM)

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#188811 - 05/14/10 03:10 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: bavarianbrit]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama


A most interesting example as it was proofed in the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse in November 1911 but carries "Eagle" "Nitro" (as well as the "mm" stamp) which was as per the 1912(post 1910 Suhl) rules. The "SS D" is actually "SS" and "D" possibly for Sylv. Schilling and the brothers Denecke(?) who were sourced for parts, would be my guess for now. The other "SS" on the left side of the rifled tube also would be for Sylv. Schilling pretty much noting he made the gun. What's the name atop the rib? I'd guess a value between $900 to $1500.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#188812 - 05/14/10 03:17 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: GermanDrilling]
PeteM Offline
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4505
Loc: IL
Originally Posted By: GermanDrilling
Hi! I'm searching for information on a German Drilling. It's in great shape and I'm assuming it to be worth $2000 - to $5000 dollars from what I've seen and learned on the internet so far.


This is a guild gun. It is not worth $5000. Perhaps $800 to $1200 depending on condition.

Pete

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#188821 - 05/14/10 04:25 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: PeteM]
GermanDrilling Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, United States

Thank you very much! Sorry for my ignorance about the price. I was just going off other guns that I saw. At least now I know I can afford to buy it off my uncle. Take Care!

Dana

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#188822 - 05/14/10 04:32 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: bavarianbrit]
GermanDrilling Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, United States

PS I'm still having problems with inserting pictures. The name on the gun looks like Ciesar Oberstein.

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#188828 - 05/14/10 05:28 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: GermanDrilling]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama
Dana:
Email them to me & I'll post them. Well, I stand corrected as I remembered that Suhl had new proof rules in April of 1912 but I forgot that they adopted the Zella-Mehlis rules of September, 1911. So all is well and it is an example to experience the new proof rules in late 1911. Anyone think there was any need to send a weapon from Suhl to the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse in order to have the latest proof test during the period of September 1911 to April 1912?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#188832 - 05/14/10 06:01 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4505
Loc: IL
Dana,

You need to figure out what caliber the rifle barrel is chambered for. Raimey may help with that. The issue is condition of the bores. The shotgun tubes are almost sure to be 16ga. I have a similar gun:


So, I have some idea as to values... They are fun guns. Good in grouse cover because of the short barrels. They reflect the needs and style of German hunting.

You can do a chamber cast to help figure the chambering. From there you can have an insert made up in 22 Hornet or perhaps 30-30. You can also get inserts and shoot 20ga shells.

Pete

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#188856 - 05/14/10 09:45 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: PeteM]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama


I'd say Hw.? Caesar of Ãœherstein?? was a firearms merchant.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#188940 - 05/15/10 05:12 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
GermanDrilling Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, United States

Hmmm... that's very interesting (about the name). That is probably a good thing too :::goofy smile::: I wonder why I got brushed off by a sports shop I was suggested too.
My uncle said he'd sell it to me for $500 dollars. But then he was worried I'd go and sell it. Maybe if I assure him I won't do that I can get the gun.

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#188941 - 05/15/10 05:13 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
GermanDrilling Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, United States
Hmmm... that's very interesting (about the name). That is probably a good thing too :::goofy smile::: I wonder why I got brushed off by a sports shop I was suggested too.
My uncle said he'd sell it to me for $500 dollars. But then he was worried I'd go and sell it. Maybe if I assure him I won't do that I can get the gun.

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#188955 - 05/15/10 07:56 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: GermanDrilling]
Steve Helsley Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 224
The proof marks suggest that it is a 9.3x72r.

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#189296 - 05/18/10 05:49 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: GermanDrilling]
z-tiger Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 1
(Dana's brother)

I thought I caught a post elsewhere about a British shotgun which bore the name of the person that the gun was made for, and the town that they lived in...as they were custom ordered barrel configurations and hand/custom made?

Using the "Blue Book" I've identied the:
'crowned G' as 1st Black Powder proof for rifled barrels - E.German Suhl proofhouse
'crowned U' as The Inspection Mark - E.German Suhl proofhouse
'crowned N'(on the stock half of the gun in front of the firing pins on the piece that hinges the gun together...i'm shure there's a shorter term)as the Suhl Nitro Powder Proof.

What appears to be serial numbers (17839) match on both parts.

The Niteo Eagle marks don't match the 1952 adopted german marks index in the "Blue Book" so at this point I am guessing they might be the Zeller-Mehlis Nitro marks from 1911.

I am also curious, there are also to fainter stamps on each side of the "U" and just above the 8,7 m/m stamp. The one on the right looks odly similar to an Austrian black powder proof mark used from (1892-1918) I'm a complete novice and not saying it is...but its the closest looking mark I've come across so far.

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#189386 - 05/19/10 02:10 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: z-tiger]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama

Roux/underlever action with the top lever as a barrel selector





Of course I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't think I've seen a German longarm with the owner's name atop the rib, or at least it is very uncommon. There have been a few examples that some thought the name was the owner but usually the name was a firearms merchant, who didn't want anyone else's name to be found on the longarm but his.

"Crown" over "G" notes proof with a solid projectile and the "Blue Book" is a start but one really needs a list of the marks from the 1911 rules. Imperial Eagles varied slightly. With a serial number about 17k, I'd say that it was made at a maker who made several per year. The marks under the current marks are older German marks. I'd guess that the tube was proofed as a single prior to 1911 and possibly with a plug gauge stamp, which was probably worked down. Then the new marks were overstamped.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#189415 - 05/19/10 05:38 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
Pete Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 2288
Loc: Bend, Or
The 8.7 mm is measured from land to land instead of grove to grove like in the US. As a result, the caliber is likely 9.3 mm (.366). The most common round then was 9.3 x 72 mm which is a low pressure round but the ammo is still available today. You should still have the chamber cast as you want to be safe, but this is the most likely caliber.

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#189459 - 05/20/10 07:10 AM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: Pete]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama
I too think the calibre is in the 360 BPE class and with the 8.7mm diameter I'd guess the bullet will be closer to 0.355" diameter. I think that the reason for the land to land diameter is that after a pilot hole was drilled, the tube was presented to the proofhouse in a state just prior to being rifled, possibly after being lead lapped where a small rod would have been inserted and a lead cylinder poured and formed to the tube diameter, and the diameter is still akin to the plug gauge diameter but in mm. If indeed the lapping was performed, they may have had pre-made cylinders. The diameter is still for the pre-rifled diameter and the pre-rifled tube was proofed with a solid projectile 0.2mm LESS than the diameter of the tube, with the rifling being cut at a later time with the exception of the "Crown" over "B" scenario where the arm was proofed in the final state. But the maker had to provide some direction as to the final cartridge choice as the proofloads are dependent, i.e. multiples of the load of the cartridge selection, on the load data of the desired cartrige. Being purely conjecture, I wonder if some of the tubes were branded as being one of most common and more stringent of the 360 BPE loads, proofed under that load and then subject to a slight alteration near the end. Or if the cartridge selection was set in stone at the beginning and there wasn't a deviation. This would all be pre-1939 as post 1939 the rules called for the tube to be pretty much near the final state and the cartridge to be selected.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#189479 - 05/20/10 10:08 AM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
2-piper Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 10019
Loc: Lynchburg TN
My Miller & Val Greiss hammer drilling bears a date stamp of 6,13 (June 1913) & was the 240th gun proofed that month. The rifle bbl is proofed @ 8.8mm/72 & the chamber id properly dimensioned for the 9.3x72R round. It bears a Crown/N followed by K.M.G./12.7gr (Copper Jacketed Bullet of 12.7 grams [196 grains]). It does not have the word "Nitro" written out on the rifle bbl, but does on each of the shot bbls (16g).
I cannot absolutely verify the following but read it from a source which I considered as reliable at the time;
The 9.3x72R was essentially given 3 types of loads over its span of popularity .
1 - a black powder loading
2 - a smokeless loding basically duplicating the black powder load & suitable for use in BP proofed guns
3 - a smokeless powder loaded to a higher intensity than the former two.
It was further stated that all 9.3x72R guns bearing a "Nitro" proof were proofed for this later loading & that cartridges loaded to this intensity level had a slightly increased rim thickness to prohibit their use in BP proofed guns. The guns bearing the Nitro proof would of course have had a corresponding increased depth to their rim seat to accomadate the thicker rims.
_________________________
Miller

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#189628 - 05/21/10 06:50 AM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: 2-piper]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama
Around the time of the 1912 Suhl rules was the period when the 9.3X72R was normalized. I think the rules were the reason for the addition of the "R"(Rand). I believe the 9.3X72R Normalized was closer to the dimensions of the 9.3X72R D but that the rim was a little smaller in diameter. I can't say on the thickness but I have read that sometimes only a magazine correction was needed to except the new normalized 9.3X72R.

I don't think the 1st proof changed at all being a triple multiple in black powder of the service load and a double multiple in mass of the service load. It was the 2nd proof where the "semi-smokeless" could be equated to the double multiple in black powder with the projectile load being a 1 1/3 multiple of the service load. It is here the "Crown" over "N" originates and apparently there wasn't much use of the "Crown" over "Nitro" on rifle tubes as the "Crown" over "N" and the "Crown" over "Nitro" were synonymous. I think there would also have been a matching "Crown" over "N" on the watertable. It is also here the type of bullet used was indicated being steel jacket, copper jacket or lead. So it is possible that in this scenario of the 2nd proof that the joined tubes in the finished state could have been rifled. Pre-1911/1912 would have had the supplemental/voluntary stamp of "Crown" over "N", or "F", with the powder weight over the bullet type and I think this proof exposure would have been much later in the process. I haven't any idea as to the "F" for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#189797 - 05/22/10 08:29 PM Re: German Drilling Some Info Needed [Re: ellenbr]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5873
Loc: North Alabama
For those inquisitive souls brave enough to have a gander at my posts, I have found that the black powder used was the Neues Gewehr-Pulver Modell 71 or NGPm/71. There were other powders available for the supplemental tests such as Schultze(Sch.P.) and Troisdorfer Flinten(Tr. Fl.P.)(maybe the "Crown" over "F" has something to do with Flinten(shotgun) or is a shotgun designation. In the rifle realm one will also find the Gewehr-Blattchen(G.B.P.) powder. And the NGPm/71 being the only one used up until 1939 with the others falling by the wayside in circa 1913. The NGPm/71 of course is associated with the Model 1871 Mauser, which was slated to roll of the production lines circa 1872. There was a kink in their plans when the Danzig, Erfurt and Spandau arsenals placed an order with the Pratt & Whitney Tool company of Hartford Connecticut and apparently the drops forges and grinding machines were shipped late or experienced a delay in the shipping process. At any rate there were a couple of other powders for the early military cartridges such as the Bayr. Gewehr Pulver, Gewehr Pulver 71 in addition to the NGPm71, which either had a cousin as Gewehr Pulver 71n/A or was also known under another acronym. As far as I can tell even post 1939 all tubes slated for multi-barrel longarms were subject to black powder proof in the provisional proof. Scattergun tubes were subject to one black powder proof and 2 smokeless proofs in the definitive proof under the 1939 rules.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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