doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Please Help Me Identify

Can anyone help me identify this old percussion double gun? I suspect it of German origin and circa 1850s and intended for big game hunting. From researching here, I also believe it is known as a "Buchsflinte." I have also seen such guns refered to as a "Zweiling." I have linked photos of my gun below.

I thought it unusual for the stock carving of what might best be described as a gothic looking bat-winged mammal (deer or perhaps boar). Also interesting is that it has a both a smooth bore (right) and deeply rifled bore (left). I will not attempt a guess at the caliber but both barrels appear to have the same caliber and are only somewhat smaller than a 12ga (a dime will not fit). The barrels also appear to be of wire twist construction (something I was not aware was done on rifle barrels).

All major parts are serial (or assembly) numbered 22. On the underside of the barrel there is a proof mark and the number 58 in an oval. The proof mark looks like a crown over two downward pointing crossed sabers.

The quality of manufacture appears to be fairly good (although this particular specimen has seen years of abuse and is now only suitable for wall decoration). However, belying the apparent care lavished in the manufacture of this weapon, I can find no indication of who manufactured this old double.


Gun:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0198.jpg

Bores:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0203.jpg

Proof Mark:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0200.jpg

Stock Carving:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/PICT0194.jpg

Zweiling refers to double barreled; Zwei is two. Buchsflinte probably refers to rifle shotgun because I believe that pflinte is an archaic term for a shotgun. In modern english a rifle shotgun combination is usually called a cape gun.
The proof mark is puzzling; looks British and yet the gun is certainly either Belgian or German. The circle 58 is also baffling to me because for those areas it should be metric and somewhere between 16 and 18 (mm) from your description. Possibly an unproofed german gun imported into England and proofed there.
Just my speculation anyhow.

cheers Doug

I think age makes it difficult. The crown looks Prussian, but I can't find the crossed sabers in any of my references. However, they do not begin until 1861.

Pete

I saw a sxs built by the Wilmot Gun Company with a very similar stock carving on a table at a small gun show in Bristol, PA, yesterday.

Could the 58 be the nominal caliber of the rifle barrel?

Doug and Pete-

Thanks so much for joining me in my head scratching! The lack of maker's mark made me wonder if this might not have been of domestic (American) manufacture. However the numbering of the locks to the barrel seem to indicate some organization, and the carving work looks very Germanic. Maybe made by a German immigrant? I had hoped that the proof mark would catch someone's eye as one they recognized. Looks like this old gun may remain a mystery.

Doug

Remington40x-

I don't have a ready way to measure the caliber, but it looks like it could be very close to a .58. I'll see about getting a ruler and measure it (I am presently away from home on business...where I recently purchased this gun at a gun show).

Doug

Looks like Gun Barrelmakers Company from 1813, which covered all of England and Whales. The crossed scepters where used by a gunmaker of Ketland and selected as the proof marks. the left side of the cross is a B, the right side a C, and the bottom of the cross a P. It was also used by the Gunmakers Company proof facility in Goodmans Field, Whitechapel,London where it still stands. The barrels could have been made in England and sent to Germany. These are the only Proofs i have seen that has any resemblence.

RdShow-

English barrels would make the gun more interesting, but the date of production if that early, is more interesting still (as it would make it one of the earlier percussion ignition). The stock carving does look very German to me. I can take some pictures of the locks, but as I recall there is little clue on them, but to a more seasoned eye, perhaps they can help folks who are trying to help me figure out the where, who and when pertaining to this old gun's make.

The crossed scepters was a private proof until the BPC was added. The letter v was added at the bottom of the crosses to serve as inspection mark. This mark remained in force until 1904. In 1875 the London proof house changed its proof mark but the Birmingham proof house maintained the crossed scepters. I believe your bbls. are Birmingham proofed.

The proof marks are not British. These marks look like crossed swords, not sceptres. Note that there was no mark at the 6 o'clock position where the letter "P" would have been. Also, there is no view mark present, which was always used in conjunction with the Definitive Proof mark. The "58" would certainly seem to indicate caliber, but the British did not begin marking bore size (marked between the Definitive Proof and View marks) until 1855. I don't think this piece is that recent. Also, bore size was marked in gauge, not caliber, until 1887. Likewise, unless this piece was later converted from flint, I don't think it's old enough to have been proved privately in Britain prior to 1813.

All,

I apologize for not giving you enough information. I spent a good deal of time with oil, brass brush, fine steel wool and cloth in order to get more information off of this gun. I also tried to get better pictures.

Both the barrels and locks in addition to the assembly (or serial) number 22 have the letters “Q R” stamped on them. Also each breach block lug on the end of the breach has the letters “Q R” and 22 stamped on it. The breach block(s) have a letter B (or perhaps BB) stamped on each barrel’s block, however the wrench used to screw the block(s) into place have partially obliterated those stamps.

There is a letter B in a square stamp on the left rifled barrel that would correspond to the 58 in the oval on the right smooth bore barrel. There is a stamp of BM on the right (smooth bore) near the barrel/stock wedge lug.

I measured the bore using a ruler and it is near to (but no larger) than 5/8ths inch (maybe just a hair under).

Most importantly the proof mark cleaned up very well. I am certain that the crossed items are not sabers after all. Just what they are, who knows? They look more like feathers/ fronds and the cleaning brought out two small stamps on either side of the crossed feathers/fronds.

The right (smooth bore) lock has a broken sear. A new sear and associated linkage to the mainspring would need to be made. Given the overall condition of the piece, I don’t think it would be wise to fire it…but I am one who is troubled by broken things. If repair is in order, any recommendations for a budget friendly gunsmith?

Thanks again everyone!- Doug

Locks:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/bothlocks.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/leftlock.jpg

Barrel stamps:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/bothstamp.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/rightstamp.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/rightnoflash.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dbadcraig/leftstamp.jpg

Doug
Much better pics.they are not British, only other ones that i can think of that looks something like that are French (St. Etienne) but i dought it, maybe just mfgs. marks. It was never a flint lock. sorry can't be more help. I don't believe the 58 is the cal. since its on the shot bbl.

Rd Show-

Thanks for looking. The "at or near" 5/8ths inch bore makes the gun roughly a .62 caliber. From one source (not sure how trustworthy) it appears that the 20ga is right around .62 caliber. That the number 58 appears in an oval and the bores appear to measure about at 5/8ths is likely coincidental. The .62 bore size apparently was not one of the more common, I found a couple in my Internet search (no double guns...but obviously they are out there). One such .62 was a single barrel "stalking rifle."

The feel I get from this old gun is that it was likely not intended so much as rifle/shotgun, but more of a rifle/musket because the bores are of the same caliber, only one rifled and one smooth. The musket may have been loaded with buck and/or ball and the rifle with patched ball. The presence of sights may also tip the balance in favor of large game hunting. However, the owners appeared to have preferred or needed the musket function as that side appears to have had easily twice the use of he rifle.

This old gun may have been one that helped tame the New World. I imagine that the owner(s) were very well armed with this combination. Most men of that era would have had single shots, and would have been handicapped by slow reload in the event of a miss. The musket would have offered a speedy reload at the expense of accuracy, the rifle and accurate shot at the expense of a speedy reload. But anyone armed with this combination would have been nearly as effective as two armed men.

I was hoping the cleaned up proof mark would be the conclusive bit of information. Other than that, the "QR" stamp may have some meaning as it appears on the locks as well. The letter B appears in several places on the barrel. Maybe Bavaria, Birmingham?

Thanks again-

Doug

The crown is a german crown and I am pretty sure I have the the palm fronds somewhere listed as a german mark. I couldn't find them on my first pass through Wirnsberger. The rifle caliber is not unusual for a german gun; I have a couple of .63 cal rifles.

cheers Doug

I had another look through Wirnsberger's directory and your stamp becomes even more puzzling; the crown to my mind is definitely a german crown but the palm fronds are very similar to a stamp used by St Etienne. The only catch is that french crowns are castellated in other words have 4 square posts on the top like the walls of a castle and are very different from german crowns.
The crowns used in stamps of different countries are usually different as opposed to a single type of stylized crown fits all.

cheers Doug

Doug-

Thanks much for looking. Perhaps the B stamps are an indication of Belgian manufacture? The similarity of the proof mark to both German and French proofs would perhaps be a characteristic of this border nation?

I have been trying to figure out what the "Q R" might stand for, as this might be a clue.

I wish I knew more about where this gun came from. I picked this gun up in South Texas (Rio Grande Valley) along the Texas Mexican border. For a time Mexico (and Texas) was under the French realm. If the gun has been in this area for a long time, it is possible that it was made in Mexico by a German immigrant (or brought into Texas by an early Texan). It is also quite possible that it was brought down here by a Winter Texan from anywhere in the US.

Doug

French style, probably Belgian manufacture (a Belgian triple proof mark is very similar). This style, particulary the stock, originated in 18th and was popular for "trade" guns into the early 20th century. I like the idea it was imported from Europe to Mexico during the reign of Maximilian I (1864-1867). Emperor Maximilian was supported by Napoleon III, and Max's wife was Charlotte of Belgium. But I beleive similar guns were relatively common all over Latin America, end probably elsewhere; over the years a saw some here in Central Europe as well.
- Jani

Jani-

It looks like you may have the final word on this. I am inclined to think you are correct. It looks very similar to Belgian weapons I have seen (and not quite up to the quality of German weapons). The quality is good, but not really up to the standards of others I have seen (particularly the engraving). It has enough to make it look like a higher end gun, but the execution of the work and the moderate coverage, do lend credence to your "trade gun" theory.

It has seen a lot of use and looks to have had very little care over the years. The stock repair is very much of the period (similar to repairs seen on American frontier weapons) and indication of practical and heavy use. While the sling swivels are long gone, I am amazed that the rod is still with the weapon. In fact, I am somewhat amazed that it is even in one piece and not parted out or thrown away years ago.

Thank you all very much for taking the time to look over the photos of my recent find. I have always loved owning and shooting the double gun (my first gun at age 11 was a .410 side by side which I gave to my eldest daughter) and as a new member, I am really enjoying this forum. This wall hanger and oldest of doubles in my collection will add a bit of character to my growing collection of double guns, don't you think?

Here is a photo of my other doubles (all shotguns) FN Browning Superposed (20ga, circa 1960s), Hatfield field grade (20ga circa 1980s, recently gifted to my youngest daughter for Christmas), Hatfield High Grade (20ga circa 1980s) and my most recent addition, a Fox Sterlingworth Field (12ga circa 1922):