doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I read it in a magazine...

Better now, IMO, that ammo makers are putting velocity on shotshell boxes rather than the old DE. Too many numbers to remember under the old system, especially if you happen to shoot different gauge guns. A Winchester chart I have lists the 3 1/4-1 1/8 load at 1255 fps in 12ga but 1295 fps in 16ga. 3DE/1 oz 12ga is 1290 fps, per the same chart.

Larry;
I took my figures from the Alliant manual. They agree with your numbers with the exception of the 3-1 12ga. The higher velocity given for 16ga over 12ga would be accounted for by the fact if you put the same powder charge under the same shot wt in a smaller bore higher pressure will be generated so a higher velocity obtained.
Alliant lists for the 16ga as follows;
2½-1 = 1165
2 3/4-1 =1220
3-1 = 1275
2 3/4-1 1/8 = 1185
3-1 1/8 = 1240
3¼-1 1/8 = 1295
3¼-1¼ = 1185
These have all been industry standards for as long as I can remember, including the 3-1 in 12ga @ 1255. I am thinking Win may have made a misprint on that one & meant it to be for the 3¼ de load. I cannot recall having even seen a 3de-1oz factory load for many a year now, they seem to have been totally replaced by the 3¼de load in deference to the autos.
I agree, the marking system has been long overdue for an overhaul. The BP equivelents have little meaning except to a handful of us old timers anymore. "US" refering to me & any others which still enjoy burning a little charcoal along.

Miller, it's the AAHLA12 AA target load, per the Winchester book. Same load is listed in John Taylor's "Shotshells and Ballistics" at 1300 fps. I think it is the same load as Remington's STS Premier Nitro 27 Handicap load, which is also listed at 1290 fps with an ounce of shot. However, under the DE line, Remington did not list a number (as they do on most of the rest of their loads)--rather, just "HNDCP". Taylor lists that Remington load at 1300 fps, which is consistent with his listing for the Winchester load.

Larry;
Hmm, does seem to be some inconsistences here in the designations. I don't have copies of those books, but understand I am in no way doubting your word on this. Everything however I can come up with which gives a DE vs velocity gives the 3-1 load at a nominal 1255 with a 1290 vel for the 3¼-1 load. This had seemingly been very consistent over the last 50+ years with the exceptions you mention.
My personal favorite for a 12ga 1oz load is to not exceed 1200fps which can be loaded to both a pressure level consistent to older doubles & a mild recoil in even light wt guns. My first experience with loading shells of this level came many years ago when I purchased a lot of the then new Hy-Score powder (pre 700X) & loaded 1oz loads to a nominal 1150fps @ about 8K psi. I fired a large number of these loads afield through a pre 1900 J P Clabrough damascus, which I shot extremely well.
I had no qualms then,nor do I now, about using loads with a relatively quick powder @ pressures up to 8K in a damascus gun with good condition bbls having a good wall thickness in the chamber area.

I don't do Damascus (yet!), but agree with you on the lower velocity 1 oz loads, Miller. Reduced recoil, and you can work up some pretty low pressure stuff for older guns. I've been playing around with an American Select recipe in an STS/Gun Club hull, under 1200 fps and about 7,000 psi. Great load in my century-old Lefever 12.

That should be a great load indeed Larry for any sound Lefever. I have essentially settled on Green Dot for loads of this type but the difference between it an AS is virtually nil as regards charge, pressure & vel. I much prefer a load of this general type than one taking a powder out of its originally intended range of use in order to obtain those extremely low pressures down in the 5k range.