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#186807 - 04/24/10 03:42 AM WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question
Bowen475 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Iowa
I recently purchased a WW Greener 3 1/4 inch 8 bore hammerless ejector double barrel Shotgun produced in 1884. The 34 inch barrels show Birmingham blackpowder proof insignias on the underside of each barrel just forward of the barrel flats--next to the Birmingham black powder proof isignias is the following:
9B
Not for Ball
10M

I believe the "Not for Ball" means that the barrels are 'choked'.

But what does the "9B
10M" stand for??

What blackpowder load (amount of powder and shot) was this gun proofed for??

I've read Tom Armbrust's Book but I'm stilll confused--the gun and barrels are in excellent shape and I would like to shoot reduced power smokeless loads--but what pressures should I be limiting loads to?

Thanks for any help u can give.

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#186812 - 04/24/10 06:55 AM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: Bowen475]
lagopus Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 1706
Loc: Derbyshire, England
The 9B means that the barrel is 9 bore and would have measured .803 to .813 at 9" from the breech face at time of proof. If it is now greater than .813 it will be deemed to be out of proof. The 10M will indicate that the gun is choked to around .775 (10 bore) at the muzzle. The 'Not Fot Ball' is indicative of choked bore guns produced under the 1875 Rules of Proof and dates it between 1875 and 1887. It would have been proofed with a load of 12 drams black powder and 3 ounce of shot. (Note this was the Proof test load). The service charge would be 6 drams (164 grains) powder and 2 1/4 ounce of shot.

Hammerless 8 bores are not all that common and ejectors even more so. Quite a few of these old 8's, if in good order, will re-proof for nitro quite successfully. Use coarse grain black powder as you will need a slower burning rate. Lagopus.....

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#186828 - 04/24/10 10:28 AM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: lagopus]
Bowen475 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Iowa
lagopus

Thanks for your reply, but I am somewhat confused and concerned--based upon the current email I got from alledgedly the Greener folks re this shotgun it appears that it was produced as a 8 gauge gun in 1884 or at least that is what it "implies"-- I was under the impression that it was one of the "light" or "medium" weight guns that Greener produced.

So was this typical that the barrels would have been proofed a 9 bore @ breech/10 bore @ muzzle and produced by Greener as an 8 bore??--Or has someone later on rebored an original 10 gauge shotgun to 8 bore and passed a fake 8 bore onto me?

Second question, from your first response it sound like I should not shoot this shotgun until I have it reproofed? Or just not with even reduced loads of smokeless powder until I have it Nitro proofed?

Third question, how does one go about getting the gun/barrels reproofed for Nitro loads?


Thanks for your help either way--I would appreciate your candor.

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#186835 - 04/24/10 12:44 PM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: Bowen475]
bosands71 Offline
Sidelock
*

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: North Dakota
check your PM's

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#186882 - 04/25/10 07:53 AM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: bosands71]
lagopus Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 1706
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Bowen 475, it would be an 8 bore in the chambers as far as ammunition is concerned but the number 9 referes to the internal diameter at 9" from the breech face. This will indicate its proof status and the correct measurments at time of proof so as to show if any metal has been skimmed out. It is not unusual to seen 12 bore marked as 13 bore or even 14 or 15 bore. If greater than .813 at this point it would be deemed as out of proof here in Britain and unlawful to sell until re-proofed. This only applies to British proof laws. Have it checked for measurement by a good gunsmith. If in proof I would happily use it with the intended loads. To re-proof you would need to send it to a Country that has a Government Proof House; preferably the one in Birmingham or London. You will find that it will throw the best patterns with black powder in any case. I would not use nitro powder until shown to be safe with it. Hope that helps a little. Lagopus.....

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#186909 - 04/25/10 02:31 PM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: lagopus]
2-piper Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 10009
Loc: Lynchburg TN
Correct me if I am wrong here, but my memory seems to tell me the in between gauge marks (IE 9/1, 9/2) were not used prior to 1887. Thus a bore marked 9 could have varied anywhere between just large enough to accept an .803" dia plug gage to 9" to just small enough to Not accept an .835" 8 ga plug to the same point. It would have been out of proof upon accepting the next plug up the ladder. If we attempt to apply this retro many guns went "Out of Proof" in 1887. An 1884 gun with an .820" bore would accept a 9/1 gage & would have thus been out of proof even in the exact condition in which it was proofed. A bore above .824 but less than .835 would accept the later 9/2 gage but would have been marked simply as 9 in 1884.
_________________________
Miller

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#186937 - 04/26/10 12:52 AM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: 2-piper]
Terry Lubzinski Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Vancouver,British Columbia
2-piper, I believe your info is all good but my understanding is that a gun pre-1887 with a 9 or 9B/10M stamp would remain in proof as long as the bore remained between .803 and .835 . The " not for ball" and "choke" stampings would help to confirm the date of proofing either pre or post 1887. Knowing when the gun was proofed is the tricky bit. It was the manufacture of lighter guns and therefore thiner barrel walls that necessitated the fractionalization of the bore sizes.
Terry

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#186943 - 04/26/10 07:02 AM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: Terry Lubzinski]
eightbore Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 11191
Loc: Maryland
I am confused by your (Bowen475) statement that Greener implied that your gun was made as an eight bore. Did they say it was an eight bore or not? Weighing the gun may tell you a lot. Even a light eight bore should be pretty heavy. My 1885 Greener Royal eight is Nitro Proved for 3 3/4" shells and 2 1/2 ounces of shot. I am not sure of the wall thickness, but it is a heavy gun, around 13 or 14 pounds. If we knew your bore dimensions and wall thickness, we may be able to give you a better idea of it's suitability for firing with heavy loads. I am much more trusting of my own wall thickness measurements than I am of a stamped proof mark. I would not in any event send a gun back to England for reproof.

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#186992 - 04/26/10 03:00 PM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: eightbore]
Bowen475 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Iowa
Eightbore

I do not have the email in front of me but i don't think it says either way--that's not what it was about--it was about verifying the year of the Gun and talks about the grade alittle--I was not privy to all the correspondence of the prior owner. The first response above got me concerned but after looking at it,the followup and comparing it to a cpuple 10 gauges I have, I beleive it its a legitimate 8 bore.

But to insert the info you taked about--the gun has 34 inch barrels, the thickness of the barrel at the breech end--taken inside the chamber to the outside with a dial caliper is .275 wall thickness and at the very end of the muzzle it is .07 wall thickness; the chokes (bore size) as best as I can tell measured just inside the muzzle is .822/3 and .825/6, respectively. I didn't measure the chamber diameter, but I tried various 8 gauge loaded rounds and they fit properly in the chamber. The inside of the bore is bright and without pitting. The gun does not appear to have been shot much, it locks up very tight and solid with part of the crossbolt still showing. I seen many old shotguns of this era and this is probably one of the best bores that I have seen. I hope this gives tyou a little more relevant info--your thoughts??

Thanks for your help.

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#186993 - 04/26/10 03:02 PM Re: WW Greener 8 Gauge Proof Mark/Load rating Question [Re: Bowen475]
Bowen475 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Iowa
Sorry

And on our bathroom scale it weight just a hair over 13 lbs

Thanks

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