doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Crown Steel Tubes

Circa 1902, American makers of bar steel for tubes used the following marks:

Sanderson Brothers - SB
Midvale - L1
Midvale for military(1899-1900) - H
Carpenter - C
http://www.scripophily.net/castconewje1.html

Winchester purchased their Nickel steel(blanks???) from Bethlehlem Steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From what I've read and gleaned I think this to be correct in describing the manufacture of "rough bored barrels" in Belgium circa 1905:

"In the manufacture of steel barrels Bessemer-Cockerill steel, Siemens-Martin steel of British and Belgian manufacture, and German steel are used. The bars after begin forged pass through a series of mechanical operations which they undergo in the following order: ---Drilling of the hole; re-boring or enlarging of the hole; exterior turning; verifying of thickness and of the bore and modification to required measurements and; exterior planning and shaping – especially for hexagonal and octagonal barrels---; polishing of the interior of the barrel with a special too, and exterior polishing and shaping.

Another mode of manufacturing steel barrels, which is, however, very little practiced, is that of taking bars of soft steel of 45 millimetres in diameter and 30 centimetres in length, which are bored and then rolled out on a mandrel until the required length is attained.

It is difficult to obtain trustworthy information respecting the boring of steel barrels by machinery, the greatest secrecy being observed by the manufactures…..”

The 2nd method as ChuckH noted in another thread, is centered around the “gun moulds” as found in the tariff lists as the end product surely meets the "forged" definition.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ErkOAQA...ers&f=false

The stock steel left the steel manufacturing facility in bar form and then experienced a set of rollers the formed the bar to a desired form closer to what a tube would be. It was annealed and/or oil quenched or tempered. I think too that the chamber end was oil tempered a bit more.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone know what percentage the Hunter Arms Company owned of the Crucible Steel Company of New York, or if in fact that Hunter Arms Company actually owned any stake in the Crucible Steel Company? Drew do you have any info on your site?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

According to Houchins, C.H. Halcomb resigned as president of Sanderson Bros. in 1902, then opened Halcomb Steel Co. in Syracuse in 1905. L.C. Smith was Chairman of the Board of Directors and apparently active in the management of the business. Halcomb supplied London steel for 0 grades and Royal steel for the hammer guns starting in 1907. Crucible Steel bought Halcomb in 1911.
There is no mention of involvement by the Hunter Bros.

I've read it a couple times now in Hunter Arms reprints and the info suggests that Hunter Arms owned an interest in Crucible Steel Company: "Up until 1913 the grading of Smith guns starting from the finest was the A-3, A-2, Monogarm, 5, 4, Pigeon, 3,2,1,0,00, and the Hammer Model. The A-3, A-2, and Monogram had Whitworth steel barrels. The Damascus barrels were still popular and could be ordered on Monogram and lower grades. The 5 down to and including the 3 grade had nitro steel barrels and on the 2 grade crown steel was used. All lower grades had Damascus barrels. Krupp steel barrels were furnished on featherweight guns of A-3, A-2 and Monograms. An interesting piece of history has just been found. It seems that Hunters Arms Co. owned a part of the Crucible Steel Co. of Syracuse, New York and most of the steel for their barrels came from there."

I haven't found what "An interesting piece of history" might be.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Where did you find that Raimey? And didn't most of the steel for the barrels come from Belgium?!? The steel for the receiver and internals was domestic.

"A-3, A-2, Monogarm, 5, 4, Pigeon"

That explains the legendary 'Whitwroth Pluid' barrels on this Monogarm

Of course most of the steel tubes in the rough came from Belgium as from where else could a price-point source, which utilizes craftsmen which span the spectrum of experience, as well as quantity be found. But considering L.C. Smith, and L.C. Smith & Bros. Typewriters and the Syracuse industrial area, sourcing could have been as easy as next door especially if you owned a stake in the steel source. An interesting 1914 read of the steel industry in Syracuse(note L.C. Smith & Bros. typewriter bldg on page 47): http://books.google.com/books?id=kloEAAA...use&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For those of you who like a little story with the info I was looking to see how the Hunter Arms Company powered their facility and how the water to work the water wheel arrived there. I had previously read that near the end of the Hunter Arms Company project some of the heavy equipment fell off into the raceway and I was trying to find additional info on the raceway as well as the location of the Hunter Arms Company in Fulton, NY. This lead to the causes of the fall of the Hunter Arms Company of which there were several and using Marlin’s Duolite process to reduce the time of the barrel finishing process from 4 days in a baking soda solution to 4 hours by the Duolite method, but it had a fetish for solder. Some give that 5000 tube sets were finished with Duolite and this barrel finish aspect may be how I was diverted to this tangent/rabbit on the Hunter Arms Company. The I went back to how Lyman Cornelius Smith acquired the assets of W.H. Baker & Sons Company and how L.C. Smith then decided to go with the talented designer Alexander T. Brown for their hammerless. Tom Hunter, etal., got wind of the Smith venture by Harry Comstock, bait/bait bucket fella, who was a Remington salesman. The father of the Hunter boys, John Hunter, Sr. wanted his boys to be in a joint venture so in 1888 the Hunter Arms Company was formed in 1888 and shortly thereafter the Hunter Arms Company acquired L.C. Smith with the stipulation that “L.C. Smith” would be on every double and L.C. Smith went on to typewriters(upper and lower case idea), which along with the Dunlop Tire Company, was the brain-child of Alexander T. Brown of Syracuse, N.Y.(single trigger patent 289062). Hunter also peddled bicycles and fans. “The Gun Works”, as it was known in Fulton on Route 481, was across the street from Morin Brother’s Hardware, adjacent to Black Clawson and made of bricks stamped “Orvis”, which were manufactured in Fulton by a works on Lake Neatahwanta. It was then that I found the part connecting the Hunter Arms Company and the Syracuse Crucible Steel Company with that being the only shred of info for now. While I was view the many interesting pics in the little book I glassed some of the single trigger examples and say Lard. Rich Boyer spelled it A.E. Liads(Allan Edward Lard of St. Joseph, Missouri) and then I began to wonder about his source material but he did interview many of the craftsmen as well as Verna Hunter Wadsworth, daughter of William Hunter, and she surpassed 100 years.
630,061 – couldn’t find it

636050
http://www.google.com/patents?id=uNB1AAA...p;q&f=false


http://www.google.com/patents?id=gadNAAA...p;q&f=false

1011972

668526
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Tn5BAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#

747191

http://www.google.com/patents?id=OL1UAAA...p;q&f=false

After the Lards/Liads saga it was on to the “Lunch Pail Special” along with employees getting examples at cost. When an order was taken, a serial number was issued and then at the end of the day the last serial number was logged and the next day the number sequence began with an example with yesterday’s last serial number + 1. But the examples the employees ordered weren’t issued a serial number until the end of the day and the employee examples were logged into the ledger, this being the reason for multiple longarms with the same serial number. And of course the “Lunch Pail Specials” were mixed numbers in nature. But at any rate the name of the books is “The Hunter Arms Co. And the L.C. Smith Gun” 2nd edition by Rich Beyer and published by R&S Antiques. I think I picked it up from Gunnerman at one of the Vintager events.

One last item center around the lauding that single trigger Smith guns wouldn’t double is the following tale and I can’t say it the longarm in question was a single trigger or not or why the gun discharged:

“Another interesting story was one of the Hunter brothers just paid a dog trainer a huge amount of money for a Setter he had been training for almost a year and the first day out with the dog, his gun went off and killed the dog. Naturally he swore the trainer to secrecy and to get him another dog.”

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very interesting thread, thanks everyone!Raimey's last post hit on Baker, which has many SB&Co marked tubes. Has any one ever seen the marking on a Syracuse Arms barrel?

Thanks again,
Craig

Craig, I am going on memory and have not checked any of my Baker guns, but I don't think I remember Baker tubes marked SB&Co. Can you give any examples on particular Baker guns with that mark ? Thanks, Daryl