doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com safe load for 1907 L.C. Smith

While I am certainly in agreement with being kind to 100± yr old wood it is in fact true that not all 100 yr old loads were the powder-puff loads of 1 1/8 oz @ 1100 fps mentioned. My 1913 catalog Lefever Arms Co catalog gives recommended loads in 12ga going up to 3½ drams or equivelent of black, bulk or dense smokeless powders with 1¼ oz shot. Thr old L&R Infallible powder in those days inpaper cases with card & felt wadding was rated in 12ga at about 8 grains per 1 dram equivelent, so the 26 grain cited by drew under 1¼oz would be a 3¼-1¼ load. The above quoted Lefever catalog lists Invallible up to 28 grains (3½DE) under that same 1¼ oz shot. By 1913 Infallible would have been a Hercules powder rather than L&R. In a series of articles appearing in the American Rifleman back in the 50's on propellant powders for Rifles, Shotguns & Handguns & repeated in the 60's in their handloades guide it was stated that Infallible & Unique were just two names for the same powder. Infallible had been listed for loads in shotshells with Unique appearing in loads for rifles or hndgun cartridges. At about the time of the original articles Infallible seems to have dropped from the scene & virtually identical loads began appearing in shotshell data using Unique. The oldest load data I have with pressure readings was published in a realoders handbook by the infamous George Leonard Herter with a copyright date of 1963. A 23 gr load of Unique under 1 1/8 oz shot in paper case with paper wads (card & fiber) shows 8,725 psi. A picture of his pressure gun shows a crusher set up, so presumely this was "Uncorrected" LUP's, common for the era. Now realizing the primers may have been hotter & other subtle changes over a half century may have given an increase in pressures, but anyway you slice it, even in 1913 28 grs of Infallible behind 1¼ oz shot was "NOT" a particularlly mild load. Also admittedly it was not the every day load of the average rabbit or bird hunter, but it was a listed load of at least one gunmaker for use in their guns & no caveat was given as to the type of bbl construction it should or should not be fired through.

"PS" Please note I am definitely not advocating firing such loads through 100 yr old guns, only stating what was shown from the actual time frame they were being built.

What Miller said

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_30_NO_06/SL3006018.pdf
Kansas City, Oct. 23 1897
A remarkable exhibition of live pigeon shooting was given at Exposition Park, this city, yesterday afternoon, when Fred Gilbert, of Spirit Lake, Ia., and J. A. R. Elliott, of this city, met in a match at 100 live birds, 30 yards rise for $100 a side and the DuPont trophy, which Elliott won from C. W. Budd a few weeks ago with the score of 99 out of 100. Gilbert and Elliott tied at 97, then Gilbert won 25 to 24 in the shoot-off.
Gilbert used an L. C. Smith hammerless gun, 3 3/4 drams DuPont smokeless powder, 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 chilled shot in Winchester Leader shells.
J. A. R. Elliott used a Winchester repeating shotgun, 3 1/2 drams E. C. powder, 1 1/4 No. 7 1/2 and 6 chilled shot; Leader shells.

Lots more here http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_333g89dwqg8

2 P maybe that is why we find an inordinate number of Lefevers with cracked stocks at the rear tang screw.

I'm taking my LC Smith out turkey hunting this year. If you are buying commercial loads, then RST is the source. If you reload, there are many loads compatible with your elsie. I patterned 5 different loads this morning looking for the best mix of velocity, charge, and pattern. My 12 gauge has full/full chokes and is red hot with 1-1/8 oz out to 45 yards, and is still effective on my turkey target at 55 yards. I get my best patterns below 1200 fps which is still mighty potent at 50 yards with #4 shot. FWIW, I don't think I've ever shot a turkey past 30 yards anyway. I like to let them get close enough to keep shot out of the meat and avoid hitting any other birds.

Rob.

I'd submit that we need to be careful when speaking of "standard" loads available in the first couple decades of the 20th century. What we tend to forget is that the "standard" 12ga back then was chambered 2 5/8", and while 2 3/4" 12's were available with 1 1/4 oz of shot, I'm pretty sure such loads were NOT offered in 2 5/8" hulls. Checking my 1940 Shooter's Bible, which lists virtually every brand of American shotshell then manufactured, I cannot find a single 2 5/8" 12ga load with a heavier shot charge than 1 1/8 oz, or a heavier powder charge than 3 1/4 drams--and many of them were 3 drams, 1 1/8 oz. I suppose it's possible that heavier 2 5/8" 12ga loads were available 30 years earlier, but that seems unlikely.

I can't speak for other makes of guns, but the question was about LC Smith. My oldest 12 ga Smith, a 1901 hammer gun, has 2 3/4" chambers as do all of the 12 ga LC Smiths that I have ever checked. Parker supposedly made some guns with chambers that were 1/8" short, but those were for 2 3/4" shells also, with the thought that the shorter chamber sealed better. I don't have any early references that give the lengths of shells, so don't know all that were made.

My Ca 1893 Lefever "Two Hook" 12 has 2 5/8" chambers. All of my "Large Hook" guns have 2 3/4" chambers & at least by the time of the 1913 catalog it was stated 12ga guns have 2 3/4" chambers unless "Otherwise Ordered".
My one 16ga (post 1907) has 3" chambers as does my one 10ga (early rod cocker ca 1889). Rechamber?? When would either ga have likely been "RE-Chambered" to a 3" length?? 3" was never a "Standard" chambering in either of these ga's & would have been more readily available around the time they were built than in other later point in time.
2 3/4" 12ga guns were much more common around the turn of century last than many seem to want to believe.
Funny thing, I don't have a single Lefever with that "Infamous Crack" behind the rear tang screw.

I have often wondered who or where these"Turkey Loads" originated. Just a normal 1150ft/sec # 6 or 4 will kill Turkeys as well as the dynamite loads promoted by manufacturers. Most of my turkeys have been killed by # 6 shot in the neck-head area.

DuPont Trophy Oct 24 & 25 1895
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_06/SL2606012.pdf
Fred Gilbert (L.C. Smith) and Charles “Hayward” Macalester (Purdey) tied at 25; Gilbert won the shoot-off 5/5 to 4/5.
Charles Wagner (Parker), E.B. Coe (Smith), John Brewer (Greener), and A.H. King (Scott Monte Carlo) tied at 24; Wagner won the shoot-off taking 3rd place.
Gilbert used a Smith gun, 8 pounds, and his load consisted of a scant 3 1/4 drams Du Pont, by measure, which weighed 42 grains. It was wadded with a Winchester field wad, a 3/8-inch pink felt and an ordinary pink edge, all 12-gauge and 1 1/8 ounces of No. 7 chilled shot.
Capt. John L. Brewer was using a Greener gun of high grade. His shells were the U. M. C. Trap, 3 1/4 inches long, 4 drams of DuPont powder by measure, weighing 36 1/2 grains; one trap wad, two pink felts, 1/4 inch 11-gauge wad and one ordinary 12-gauge pink edge wad over the powder and 1 1/4 ounces of No. 7 chilled shot; the shell had a very hard square crimp.

What we also have to remember here is that it was quite common--especially with target shooters of that era--to use shells nominally somewhat longer than the chambers in which they were fired. (So documented in a 2 part American Rifleman article from the 30's.) The paper case mouths, opening into the forcing cone, gave some protection to the shot on its initial contact with the bore. Result: fewer flyers, better patterns.

My Lefever barrels (1901 gun) are chambered 2 5/8". The second set, about 15,000 later (but renumbered to the gun), are 2 3/4" and do not look to have been modified.

I don't know at what point Hunter Arms went to 2 3/4" as standard for the 12ga. (2 9/16" was still their standard for the 16 as late as 1938.) But American gunmakers must've made quite a few short-chambered 12's, because as late as 1940, the short shells offered by American ammo makers outnumbered 2 3/4" 12's by about 2 to 1. My guess would be that a target gun, unless the buyer specified otherwise (and some did, so they could shoot long shells in short chambers), would have been more likely to have 2 3/4" chambers than a field gun.