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3 members (Marks_21, Fudd, 1 invisible),
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Key:
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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I've been meaning for some time to post this interesting pre-1912 Max G. Fischer example owned by Clay. It may seem that I'm a stickler on longarms peddled by firearms merchants whose only connection to the firearms is there name being rolled stamped atop the rib but that is just a simple fact of smart economics. I had assumed that the Berlin makers had sourced their examples from Suhl, and the surrounding area, but this example proves otherwise seeing Max G. Fischer completed it from sourced components with it bearing his own serial number range. It is refreshing to see master craftsmen outside of Suhl & Zella-Mehlis using their talents and of course as always there are exceptions to the assumed rule.      Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hi Raimey. One of my very favorite upland guns is a dainty rounded action 16 ga hammer gun marked Max Fischer, Berlin on the top rib, and also with his own serial number, this time marked MF 2xx, a very low number. Your examaple appears to not have the "MF" preceeding the actual number. It sports Krupp steel barrels, and no identifying marks that I can find as to the source. I have always assumed it to be a Sauer gun finished by Max Fischer. I have had this gun for many years, bought it from Thad Scott. It apparently at one time was fitted with an extra set of combo barrels, as it has a set trigger, but they did not survive until my purchase, wish they had. I shoot it with 2 1/2" Poly Wad loads, but also use it for my "vintager" style black powder shooting. It has much better than usual engraving and wood. When I bought it, the buttstock had been shortened to 12" and also cut to a very harsh pitch at the rear. Thad surmised it was used by a wheel chair bound shooter. It has been extended back to my usual 14 1/2" now, but that harsh angle is still visible at the glue line. Came to me in wonderful original codition, even with a very nice braided leather sling, which I use and like a lot. All in all, one of my favorite guns, perhaps in my top three. Don't see many Max Fischer guns, Ben Loving had one in inventory for long time, a clam shell type actioned gun, apparently has moved it out, as it no longer appears in his inventory. 
Last edited by ChiefShotguns; 03/17/10 05:38 PM. Reason: Add photo
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
Thanks for posting this. As Daryl H. surmised, this example is essentially a variation on a Greener Facile Princeps action. The ejectors were out of whack (to the point that I couldn't open and close the action), so I sent the gun to the shop of an ejector specialist. After tearing out some of his hair and cursing the Greener name, this gentleman has decided to investigate the feasibility of converting the Fischer to a non-ejector.
Fine by me.
Clay
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Clay, is your gun the one that Ben Loving in California had in his inventory?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Chief,
No, it is not the same gun.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
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Richard Fischer, Jr. Hofbüchsenmacher example:  Lot #2270B - R. Fischer Drilling http://www.proxibid.com/asp/CatalogPrint.asp?aid=15834"Serial no. 371. 16 gauge and 8x57JR. 26 7/8-inch barrels with matted flat rib. Spear front sight and folding rear sight. Krupp Stahl. Rib marked: Richard Fischer, Jr. Hofbuchsenmacher, Gera-Reuhs. Case-hardened scalloped reinforced boxlock action fully engraved with foliate scroll and game scenes. Left side: three hinds. Right side: stag with two hinds. Cocking indicators. Adjustable set front trigger (rifle barrel). Extractor. Non-automatic safety. Greener-style crossbolt. Horn triggerguard and grip cap. Finely checkered pistolgrip stock of straight grain walnut. Nickel silver oval with monogram. Cheekpiece. Horn buttplate with basket weave design. Finely checkered splinter fore-end with Deeley Edge style release. Sirius 4x 42 telescopic sight with bold post and crossbar reticule with hand detachable mounts. ?" Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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   Richard Fischer Jr. Gera-Reuhs drilling Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hard to read, even with a good photo tool. What is the meaning of the term "Gera-Reuhs?", and is the gun marked from Berlin? Maybe that's a town, not in Berlin, I don't know. Do you believe this is maybe a son of Max Fischer?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Gera is a town south of Leipzig, (which is south of and not all that far from Berlin.) Gera can also be a family name in Slovakia, southern Poland, perhaps Bohemia and Moravia, as well as in Germany. Not clear to me whether the German Gera's are ethnic Slavs, or whether the Gera's in Slovakia and other Slavic regions are ethnic Germans. Reuhs is a family name (not a common one) in Germany and sometimes further east. It is sometimes but not always a Jewish name (ditto Gera) which, sadly, probably explains why neither name is common in that part of the world.
Neat drilling, by the way.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Cheif:
I don't think Richard Fischer was in the direct Max Fischer line but seeing that he advertises as a Höfbüchsenmacher, supplier to a court, I'd say that his father probably was the one that acquired the rank and Jr. just continued the tradition. I don't know from which court he was sourced. No the term "Berlin" wasn't on the example and I've asked for better pics as well as pics of a Max Fischer example owned by the same person. As soon as the pics arrive I'll post them.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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 Richard Fischer, Junior circa 1907 - supposed to be one of the top pistol shots of his time. Lovely stance although I suspect it was staged. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
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 Max G. Fischer was known for his pistols.  A Fischer is named in this photo(4th from the left) but I can't say for sure which one but I would guess of the Max line but who knows. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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If it is of any interest, I had a Max G. Fischer, Berlin, marked Mauser 98 in 9x57 rimless Mauser.
Proofed 118/35. German Nitro proof marks, (2 crowns + N). Prooved for 2/8 g GBP St. m. G.
The scope was a Landlicht 4 x 81, (made by Dr. Walter Gerard / Landlicht AG, Germany). The mounts were Akah and the 22 1/2 barrel, hex to round. Half stock with reinforcing plates, set trigger and a full length machine-finished rib. Bore was cerrosafe'd as 0.3585 dia.
This particular rifle would group four 250 grain Hornady Interlocks into 1,1/4 at 100 yards. One thing that gave it a little bit of class was a piece of horn inset behind the trigger guard, on the grip. The stock looked terrible but I got it but refinished and it came up a treat with a good deal of original fiddle-back finish. To remove the rear Akah mount, the scope had to be dissembled as the rings did not come apart.
Undoing the screw simply allowed them to spring apart a little to slide along the tube.
Traded for a 6,5x68.
Last edited by Kiwi; 06/21/12 05:24 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Actually it is the gun that was at Ben Loving, I know as I brought from him, I traded away after awhile as I could not get the ejection problem fixed and found a still better 16 that I could not resist. I found if I was careful when loading the shells not to press them but let them sit loosely the gun could be closed without issue. My son hunted with it without issue but once.
Max Fischer was a Berlin gunshop that did not survive the war at one time I had the address, it had the misfortune of being near the war ministry and was bombed out. I had some references for it but cannot now find them now.
Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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So, old colonel, you are saying the Max Fischer clamshell Facile Princeps actioned gun in the first several photos above was indeed the gun that Ben Loving had for some time? You bought it from Loving, then traded it away and Clay ended up with it? That makes good sense, there surely are not many of those action designs marked Fischer in the country. I looked at it with an eye toward adding it to the other Max Fischer gun I already had, but could not get together with Loving on it. I find it very interesting that at least three of us here on this bbs became seriously interested in the same gun. That was some time back, perhaps six or seven years when I initially saw the gun. Fischer apparently either was quite a craftsman himself, or had someone working with him who was. The few examples of his work I have seen have all had good finish detail, including nice stocking and engraving. Not many of his guns turn up. I notice that gun is marked "M.G. Fischer, Berlin" while mine is marked "Max Fischer, Berlin." Wonder why he used two different "signatures?"
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Sidelock
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I am sure it is the same as I have pictures of it and the serial numbers on the water table, engraving, markings on screws, problem with the ejectors all match.
It is a lovely gun but it has a limp and I could not see myself putting more money into redoing the stock if I could not cure it. The challenge of the facile princep is that so few can make them right. That said today I do have a actual Greener 16 FH50 facile princep but with a different ejector system. It is not as intersting as the Fischer, but a good gun and it has been bent to fit me. It is my light gun weighing 5 1/2, which I use for walks.
Last edited by old colonel; 06/24/12 05:37 PM.
Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I think there was a Max Fisher Sr. and a Max Fischer Jr., but they both may not have been Max G. Fischer.  On an early hammergun - note the initials M.F. 207  It may be that the serialization continued with both. From the 1890s to a guess of 1908 they were at Prinz-Albrecht-Strae(Niederkirchnerstrae today). The street was constructed in the early 1890s and some type of construction of the palace forced Max G. Fischer to move to Kockstrae 2 prior to WWI.  Whenever the move at the end of some construction effort, a banner that said we've moved hung at intersection of Prinz-Albrecht-Strae & Wilhelmstrae. Based on the 1908 Franz Jger adverts noting Max G. Fischer as an agent at Prinz Albrecht Strae 1, I assume that to be the final days at the address. Fritz Fischer of Kirchstrae 8 of Friedenau near Berlin had a couple of pistol type D.G.R.M. or utility patents, 326134 & 327106, during 1908. For now I don't know what the Max G. Fischer relationship might have been, if any. If I read it correctly, a Berlin Pistol shooter Fischer is the 4th from the left. Always, pistol expert Richard Fischer, Jr. is noted as Fischer - Gera, so this just may be our Max G. Fischer. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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Last edited by vlad; 10/22/12 02:35 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Nice. Glad you found us with your first post.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Very nice. Thanks for sharing.
OWD
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Vlad,
Your gun has beautifully engraved fences!
Roger
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Boxlock
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HELLO ELLENBR, I HAVE A SHOTGUNS RICHARD FISHER CALIBER 16 GAUGE SIMIL PICTURE.
NANO.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
in the photo, is that Otto Bock (5th from left, next to Fisher)?
rgds
Gnter
NRA Life 1974
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Gunter, no that is Herr Block. I've seen him in another image with fellas Brenneke & Ldecke.
Nano,
Email me any images & I'll post them. I would most pleased to see any images.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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