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Originally Posted By: PeteM
In England damascus production had stopped. The Belgians continued into the 1930's.


"Continued" making junk

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OK-the dog's been jogged and Dr Beth's been walked and took to WalMart so here's the long version- even if only jOe is interested and it's WAAAY TMI smile

Skelp came from the 1350-1400 Middle English shelpen: to beat, flog, a slap, smack, or blow, esp. one given with the open hand.

Crolle - Crull - Krul - Crullen - Curlen are also Middle English words that appears in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales written c. 1386 “And his lokkes buth noght so crolle…” and a young Squier...with locks as "crulle as they were laid in presse."
In Danish, krolle; Swedish, krulla; French, s'enrouler; German, rolle; Spanish, rollo.
"To form into coils or ringlets. Twist."
"Crolle" was used in reference to damascus barrels in Liege and England by at least the 1880s.

c. 1800 the word Skelp (sometimes spelled scelp) was used in the pipe making process in reference to iron or steel rolled or forged into narrow strips and ready to be made into pipe or tubing by being bent and welded.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Steel-Pipe.html
In 1815, William Murdock invented a coal burning lamp system. To fit the entire city of London with these lights, Murdock joined together the barrels from discarded muskets. He used this continuous pipeline to transport the coal gas. When his lighting system proved successful a greater demand was created for long metal tubes. To produce enough tubes to meet this demand, a variety of inventors set to work on developing new pipe making processes.
An early notable method for producing metal tubes quickly and inexpensively was patented by James Russell in 1824. In his method, tubes were created by joining together opposite edges of a flat iron strip. The metal was first heated until it was malleable. Using a drop hammer, the edges folded together and welded. The pipe was finished by passing it through a groove and rolling mill.
Russell's method was not used long because in the next year, Comelius Whitehouse developed a better method for making metal tubes. This process, called the butt-weld process is the basis for our current pipe-making procedures. In his method, thin sheets of iron were heated and drawn through a cone-shaped opening. As the metal went through the opening, its edges curled up and created a pipe shape. The two ends were welded together to finish the pipe.

The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms William Greener 1835
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C
Greener described 9 different gun barrels at that time, and in general was extremely critical of the quality of British gun barrels being produced:
1. Damascus from only two sources: Mr Clive of Birmingham and George Adams of Wednesbury (introduced about 1820)
2. Wire-Twist Iron (later called Plain Twist or Skelp)
3. Stub-Twist Iron - Made from horse-nail stubs (iron) mixed with coach spring steel, fused ("puddled") into a "bloom of iron", then hammer forged into rods, rolled into threads but NOT twisted, which were then wrapped around a mandrel and hammer welded. He later describes Stub Damascus as Stub Twist rods which ARE twisted then hammer forged into a ribband.
4. Mr Wiswoulds Iron Barrels and a similar product called Silver Steel. These are described as ¾ steel and ¼ iron and from the description may be early Two Rod "Laminated Steel "
5. Charcoal Iron (without steel) – inferior to Stub-Twist
6. Threepenny Skelp Iron
7. Twopenny/Wednesbury Skelp
8. Sham Damn Skelp which apparently was stained to look like Wire-Twist
9. Swaff Iron Forging made up from small scraps of lockplates and gunscrews

The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge
George Ripley, Charles Anderson Dana 1859
http://books.google.com/books?id=kL9PAAAAMAAJ
The commonest kinds of guns are tubes, formerly made by turning over a flat strip of iron called a skelp. about 3 feet long, 4 inches wide, somewhat thicker and broader at one end than the other, and lapping the 2 edges for welding. The skelps were forged and welded by hand, but this is now sometimes done by rolling, and the barrel is drawn out to its required length as it is welded in the rolls from an original cylinder about one foot long; or, as the most convenient way of obtaining greater thickness at one end than the other, two tubes are employed for each barrel, and the thinner is inserted into the thicker, one end of which is opened out for the purpose, and then the two are welded together. The quality of the barrel depends upon the toughness and elasticity of the iron; the former prevent; bursting, and the latter the bulging out of the iron by the explosive force of the powder. From a very early period the superiority of the metal used for horse-shoe nails was well understood, and the old nails, or stubs, were reserved for the manufacture of gun barrels. They were largely imported into England from the continent; and it was not until the supply was becoming insufficient that such success was attained in the use of other equally good materials is to render the stubs comparatively unimportant. Iron of unsurpassed quality was at last made expressly for gun barrels, and methods were adopted of using bars of steel in combination with others of iron, which together formed the mixture called laminated steel, now regarded as the very best material. Bars for iron barrels are prepared by the process of piling. The selected pieces or scraps are first clipped into bits of the size of stubs, then washed with water, and cleaned from rust with acid; they are next placed in a revolving drum and rolled until they become bright as silver, when they are piled and heated almost to fusion; the ball, weighing from 40 to 50 lbs., is hammered, and then drawn down t6 the required size in the rolls. The bars thus obtained may be used in a great variety of ways according to the kind of barrel to be made. They may be turned up longitudinally to form plain barrels, the grain of which runs lengthwise with the tube; or coiled in a spiral around an iron rod used as a core, and thus form when the whole is welded together the stub twist, the grain of which follows the spiral; or they may be piled up, 6 bars alternately with as many of steel, and the whole be then forged into one, and rolled into rods 3/8 of an inch wide, which coiled in a spiral produce the wire twist barrel; or into rods 3/8 of an inch square for being converted into Damascus iron. For this purpose each rod is twisted to the number of 14 turns to the inch, by which its thickness is doubled and its length reduced from 6 to 3 feet; three of these rods are then so laid together that the twists of the middle one run the contrary direction from those of the others, and the whole being heated are welded together and then rolled into a rod 11/16 of an inch wide for coiling in a spiral. It presents a beautiful appearance, resembling the Damascus blades, but is probably weakened by over twisting, and in England it is not esteemed so strong as the stub twist barrel. By slightly modifying the process a great variety of patterns may be produced in the figures.

Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering
By D. Appleton and Company 1873
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ
Gun Barrels
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA936&dq=damascus+barrels&lr=#PPA935,M1
The barrel-making being also divided into several branches.
The first process in the manufacture of musket or common barrels is the making what are technically called skelps. The skelp is a piece of iron about one foot long, but thicker and broader at one end than at the other; and the barrel of a musket is formed by forging out such pieces to the proper dimensions, and then folding or bending them round into a cylindrical form until the edges overlap, so that they can be welded together. It is then placed in a furnace, raised to a welding heat, and taken out, when a triblet or cylinder of iron being placed in it, it is passed quickly through a pair of rollers. The effect of this is, that the welding is performed at a single heating, and the remainder of the elongation necessary for bringing it to the length of a musket-barrel is performed in a similar manner, but at a lower temperature. This method of welding is far less injurious to the texture of the iron, which is now exposed only once, instead of three or four times to the welding heat.

The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle: Including Game and Wildfowl Guns, Sporting and Match Rifles, and Revolvers
John Henry Walsh (Editor of The Field) 1882
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ
CONSTRUCTION OF THE GUN
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA83,M1
THE BARRELS
Whatever may be the kind of gun about to be made, the first thing done is to forge the tube or tubes containing the charge. Formerly they were all made of plain iron, but for the last hundred years the barrels of all best guns have been constructed either of strips or twisted iron coiled spirally round a mandril, and welded together by heat, or of steel. At present the selection is from three kinds, viz., first, Damascus; second, laminated steel; and third, plain steel.
Plain iron is only used for the very cheap guns intended for the foreign market, and I shall therefore only allude to it here in the most cursory manner. The other three kinds must, however, be more fully described.
The chief difficulty in the present day is to obtain iron of sufficiently good quality to mix with the steel, whether for Damascus or laminated barrels. Formerly horseshoe stub nails were alone thought good enough; but of late years these have fallen off in quality, and are also insufficient for the supply of the increased demand for shot guns since the passing of the present game law. These stubs, generally mixed together with other "scraps," were welded together and forged into bars; but in the present day new iron is alone used, selecting the best quality in the market, and refining it by melting and puddling, after which it is submitted to the tilt hammer, by which its fibres are condensed and drawn out. Swedish steel is treated in a somewhat similar manner, and then the material is ready for the barrel forger, who proceeds as follows:
Bars of equal length are laid together or "faggotted," and heated in a furnace, after which they are put under the tilt hammer, and hammered again and again, so as to condense the fibres, and weld the iron and steel together. The bars thus treated are cut into lengths, again "faggotted," and put in the furnace, when they are hammered into narrow strips of the desired width, as presently to be described.
According to the kind of barrel intended is the proportion of steel and iron, and also the treatment of these metals by the barrel maker. Thus—
In single iron Damascus the two metals are in nearly equal proportions.
English steel Damascus is composed of six parts steel and four of iron.
Silver steel Damascus has nearly eight parts steel and two or two and a half of iron.
Laminated steel is composed, like English steel Damascus, of about six parts steel and four of iron. The sole difference in fact between steel Damascus and laminated steel consists in the manipulation of the rods, which are less twisted in the latter than in the former, but more hammered to produce firm welding and condensation of the fibres. Excessive hammering of Damascus iron interferes with the beauty of the figure.
With the exception of plain steel barrels, all those for shot guns are welded by heat as above described, and wherever steel enters into their composition, wholly or in part, great care is necessary not to overheat them, as by that means its tenacity its materially reduced.

The process of forging twisted barrels is as follows: A rod is first heated, and then twisted into a spiral form by means of two iron bars, one fixed, and the other held in a notch of a machine, which is turned by a winch handle, so as to effect the twist. These rods are then treated according to the quality of the barrels to be forged. Thus, for very common guns a single rod of iron is slightly twisted, and hammered when hot into a flat band. For the next kind two twisted rods of steel and iron are welded into a band. Successive qualities are formed of three, four, five, or six twists of alternate steel and iron, the most common being three and four twist. The next operation is similar in principle for all guns, though it varies in the degree of manipulation. It consists in twisting one of these bands, spirally round a mandril, as in the woodcut in which "four twist" but the appearance in the several twists differs only in the number of lines separating the rods of which the band is composed. When the rod is thus twisted it is allowed to cool, while others are twisted in the same way; and the next process is for the smith to join the edges by welding them under the hammer at a white heat, at the same time placing the twist with its mandril in a semi-circular groove, and turning it constantly under the hammer. When thoroughly welded a second portion is placed on the same mandril, and the two are heated together, after which, by "jumping" and hammering, they are welded into a continuous tube. By repeating this operation again and again the proper length is obtained, and the barrel is completed in the rough. Finally, light hammer-hardening completes the operation. In the process of forging the barrel forger commences at the breech end with thick bars, and gradually reduces the substance by selecting them of lesser dimensions.
Plain barrels for the foreign market are forged by bending a flat ribbon of iron round a mandril without any twist, and then welding the edges together.

Damascus barrels are of various kinds, those in most general use being as follows:
1. Single iron steel Damascus, made of a single twisted bar rolled out into a wide ribbon (seven-eighths of an inch wide), gradually reduced in thickness from the breech to muzzle. This is known as common twist, or skelp.
2. Two-stripe steel Damascus, made from two twisted rods rolled into a ribbon five-eighths of an inch wide, and reduced in thickness as before.
8. Three-stripe steel Damascus, made with three twisted rods three-eighths of an inch wide, and also gradually reduced in thickness from breech to muzzle.
4. Fine Damascus barrels, chiefly made in Belgium, are made from four, five, or six rods by different makers.
5. Silver steel Damascus is made up of three or four rods with steel of a superior quality.

These several qualities, as well as some others, are shown, in the annexed engraving, the drawings for which are from specimens of English (Marshall's) and foreign barrels shown by Messrs. Bland and Sons at the Sportsman's Exhibition, held at Islington in July, 1872.











Last edited by Drew Hause; 02/17/10 06:58 PM.
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Joe-I don't remember if any of your beloved Scotts are damascus. If so, they may have Belgian made tubes. Think about that.

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Francotte junk?

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Keep telling youself that...

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Sorry to interrupt jOe's Belgian love fest smile , and I've been searching without success for confirmation of this quotation from James Purdey II some time in the 1880s: " ... weight for weight (Whitworth) steel is stronger than iron and shoots harder, though not of so handsome an appearance as damascus barrels..." He preferred Belgian damascus "...not that when thorough sound English damascus can be obtained they are not superior, but because Belgian workmen are more careful than English, and there is thus less risk of slag and rubbish getting into the welds."

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And let me take this opportunity once again to remind our British brethren that WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR THE ENGLISH DAMASCUS ROSETTA STONE! smile

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Drew/Gents

Is this barrel by chance English skelp?



and also here - on a different gun but by the same manufacturer;





Any thoughts appreciated.


Last edited by CBL1; 02/25/10 02:04 PM.
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Looks like Laminated Steel to me...

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CBL1: I believe jOe is correct, but could you send me high resolution full size images by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net ? Lots of pics here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18063717

c. 1866 Joseph Manton Laminated Steel



William Greener 7b Pigeon gun c. 1844-1869 Laminated Steel refinished by Paul Stevens


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