doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Post WWII J P Sauer - Suhl markings

The stamp of "Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl" was used with the 3 Rings and this example may have been in the last of the ones from Suhl with Krupp tubes: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151981163

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here are a few images of my August 1951 marked Sauer, my left rear locking lug has all sorts of markings ?

FJS's 1959 Ernst Thalmann Werke Sauer example:













I'm guessing around 400k that Sauer changed to IZH crucible 4 Ring Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl and IZH had to began offering the steel type in 1951 because 1950 saw the last of the Krupp steel tubes and of course there may be exceptions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - do the stampings on the locking lugs of the East German Sauers have any relation to quality ?

I found it interesting that on my 851 prooved Sauer that germany was stamped below the four rings, instead of GDDR or something.

Sorry postoak I forgot to reply to your post and ask what the 3rd pic was. 1 was good quality between Outstanding quality and utility grade. I'm still searching for info on the date of the "4 Ring" steel but it had to be in the 1950-1951 period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey - it is Gentlemen like yourself that add so much to this forum.

The book "Krupps, the Story of an Industrial Empire", by Gert von Klass, (Transl., by James Cleugh, London 1954), states that while Krupp's fame was established by gunmaking, the turning point of their financial security was established by a large order for railway wheels. Chapter 4, "The Rings" states: "These (seemless railway) tyres were for years the main articles he produced. Accordingly, it was from this branch of his work that he took his trade mark. The world famous symbol of three rings simply represents three interlocking tyres".

In the same odd way, the town of Suhl was originaly known for shoe-making before it became a centre of gunmaking, and your barrel flat has a shoemaker's "pick and sole" inside a shield (above the 16/70), which is the town's symbol to this day.

"JP Sauer & Sohn, The Story of the Oldest Weapons factory in Germany", (Arfmann and Kallmeyer, 2004)states that the East German Sauer Model VIII from Suhl sold for 300 DM around 1952, a specialy discounted price achievable because of state subsidies, compared to 500 DM for the manufacturing costs alone for the West German product. So yes, the former may have been originally cutting some corners.

I chap I know inherited his German Grandfather's JP Sauer post-war Model VIII. I only saw it briefly and a while back, but I'm sure it had "olympic" style interlocking rings too. I'll drop him an email to see if he can add anything of interest such as the production date.

Was Model 8 a post-war Sauer designation? Merkel certainly had a Model 8, but I don't recall that Sauer did. However, in the East German period, they were all coming from the same factory anyhow.

The post-war Stoeger catalogs refer to the West German product as the Model VIII, (with and "E" after that if it had an ejector). So does the history referred to.

The Sauer assets in Suhl were confiscated by the Soviets and one of the Sauer family arrested. To this day his exact fate is unknown. The head of production was put in a labour camp where he subsequently died. The rest of the family and some of their top engravers leapt at the chance to relocate to the west. The company was reestablished in Eckernförde in Schleswig-Holstein; West Germany where they had to start from scratch. They decided that the time-tested Model VIII would be the logical gun to restart production with, but the technical drawings were still in the East. So they acquired one, measured it precisely and made from this exact copies. In the mean time the East Germans under occupation were still making Model VIII's in Suhl. So they were coming from 2 factories. Later on the Model VIII's were even made in other countries (Italy and Spain) under licence from West-Germany, but always marked accordingly.

Initially after the war, the Allies forbade the use of the name Krupp on firearms made in West Germany. Such steel was instead marked Bochum Steelmaker's Association. I'm not sure if this restriction included the Krupp 3-ring symbol or for how long this regulation was in force. But it's perhaps another explanation for the use of the 4-ring symbol in Suhl post-1945, that it was to exloit the absence of the familiar and desirable Krupp brand on the wider market.

The American government put a 50% duty on East-German goods so I'm picking not too many made it to the States.

My 1961 Stoeger catalog shows their West German Sauer imports as the Model 60, 60 Deluxe, and Royal.