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I don't have an opinion on any harmful effects on wildlife but I can tell you we had a couple of police officers become very ill when they used the police range when the ventilation system wasn't working properly and their level of lead went through the roof. They had to undergo painful treatments to remove the lead from their systems.I realize that wildlife would not be exposed to such high amounts from shooting.,but lead is something you do not want to get into your system.

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Originally Posted By: Grouse Guy


All, as another somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion to the ongoing deniers, each of you has a chance to be a citizen scientist at home! Just take a loft of pigeons, Johnny house of Bobwhite, maybe a coop of chickens or pheasants, perhaps even your granddaughter's parakeet, cockatiel, or wife's parrot or macaw (caution- this can get expensive real quick), and just add lead shot.

Put a couple ounces in their grit tray or cup, maybe a square load of #8 from our favorite gauge the 16, a spreader load of #6, and a high brass load of #5... I'm talking a real smorgasbord here. Then just sit back and enjoy! Take careful notes... depending on the bird or situation you may have mortalities within hours or days. If breeding, you may see the chicks die, especially squab getting pumped full of pellets by the adults. Hens may stop laying. Some adults may grow listless, and even be cannibalized by their pen mates! There is just no end to the entertainment and learning opportunities for the whole family! Report back and tell us what you discover!



A couple OUNCES, Ben . . . darn, if you're talking a small bird, like a woodcock or a quail, now you're feeding the poor critter maybe 30% or so of its weight in lead. If nothing else, he'd sure have a tough time flying with all that lead in his a$$.
But that's a whole lot of lead, even for a larger bird like a pheasant.

Mortalities within hours or days . . . if mortalities occur within hours or days, then how come perfectly HEALTHY birds that have been SHOT are found with lead in their gizzards? That's recent ingestion, and it's the lead with which they've been SHOT that killed them, not what's in their gizzards.

You really need to apply the "logic test" to some of the "science" you cite, Ben. And even more, some of the conclusions you reach based on that science. And you still haven't told us where those southern Ontario chukar came from. Can you cite something pointing to a wild, huntable population of chukar in southern Ontario? To my knowledge, that'd be maybe 1,000 miles or so from the nearest huntable native chukar population in North America. So . . . are we talking game farm birds here, or what? Certainly different than wild, in terms of concentrated shot fall on a hunting preserve. But even on a preserve, something stinks to high heaven here--because typically, preserve birds aren't out and about for all that long before they're shot. Maybe it's the evil bird food people, mixing lead with what the people who run the preserves are tossing into the flight pens. In summary, you need to explain: 1) How wild chukars got to southern Ontario; or, alternatively 2) How even preserve birds would accumulate very much lead in their gizzards if, as is typical on preserves, they're shot on the same day they're released from their pens.

If you're taking an honest and objective look at the information you're presenting, Ben, you'd ask yourself those questions--and you'd have answers ready before you post the references. Otherwise, you're just throwing random crap up against the wall and waiting to see what sticks. And as research, that approach seriously sucks.

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Chuck in California with his light guns for quail in those rocky canyons and those pictures of pheasant hunters in the Dakotas as properly spaced as good infantry in cornfields made me wonder about concentrations of lead along firing lines. I think of taking grandchildren to grouse haunts that I call Blood Alley. All of us hunt where we know there are birds. But chukars in Ontario, no.

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Just read that the Blackhawk county Iowa conservation people had an eagle die of lead poisoning. Bird tested several times the toxic dose.They went on to say that of the 130 eagles that they have tested 60 had died of lead poisoning. They say they get it from scavenging deer carcasses and from fish with lead in their systems. I do know that lead is not excreted from your body once it is in.I can't imagine that gallinaceous game birds could get enough in their systems though.

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I see this thread is still going, just like last time, with lots of science being tossed about. It is interesting and I think Deeble is ahead on points. I hope that all of you contributors are remembering to send your comments, pro or con, to the State of Montana folks. I will attest to the hard fact that lead kills birds...3 Roosters and 1 chicken today..Tommorrow afternoon I will be performing more scientific testing on the toxcidity (did I spell that right Ben?) of steel shot on Geese...

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Hello Larry and others:

A couple ounces is a lot of lead. But I still dare you to put even just five pellets into your parakeet's grit dish....

I don't have an explanation for lead shot being found in the gizzards of those wild chukar in Oregon, except that they ate it and were still alive long enough to get shot. It might not be as simple as bird eats shot, bird dies instantly. I'll allow that depending on the conditions it might take a while. If it happens to be a bird that is on soft foods that time of year, like chukar can be when they have grass greens available, maybe they don't experience toxic effects as quickly. But when they are on a cured seed diet like most summers in chukar habitat, they may succumb more quickly. By the same token, I would never expect sage-grouse to die from eating shot... they flat don't eat grit at all because they only eat soft foods and don't have a muscular gizzard. Maybe eagles have so much trouble because of stronger stomach acids to digest meat. It would kinda make sense, wouldn't it? Have you called Dr. Kerry Reese in Idaho like I suggested earlier? Be up front, tell him you are a skeptic, push some of your ideas at him, and see what he has to say.

I think Amarillo gave a great summary of the Ontario chukar and pheasants at post #173891. I never said they were wild birds; even I know that wild chukar don't exist in Canada.

Here are some more studies:

"Large die-offs or consistent mortality, such as that of swans in northwestern Washington, prompt concern that lead poisoning could negatively impact populations. In 2000-01, over 300 trumpeter swans died in Whatcom County, WA from ingestion of lead shot (WDFW, unpublished report to the Commission, 2001). The 2001 population of trumpeter swans in this area was 916, and it is likely that lead poisoning is affecting the population in this area."

Here is a case where population level impacts have been documented from lead alone. Larry, you suggest that documented population level impacts are the ones we should care about as wildlife managers. Would you recommend we keep shooting lead in a place like coastal WA? Would you recommend we keep shooting lead in Montana at Freezeout Lake Wildlife Management Area (allowed there on the shoreline, cattails and adjoining wheat for pheasant, sharptails and huns) where the majority of Montana's trumpeter swans stage during migration?


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Originally Posted By: Grouse Guy


Here are some more studies:

"Large die-offs or consistent mortality, such as that of swans in northwestern Washington, prompt concern that lead poisoning could negatively impact populations. In 2000-01, over 300 trumpeter swans died in Whatcom County, WA from ingestion of lead shot (WDFW, unpublished report to the Commission, 2001). The 2001 population of trumpeter swans in this area was 916, and it is likely that lead poisoning is affecting the population in this area."

Here is a case where population level impacts have been documented from lead alone.

Just what is WDFW, and why was their report to "the commission" unpublished? Considering the first sentence said, "Large die offs, or consistent mortality....", I would expect that this came from the DRD (Department of Redundancy Department). But Grouse Guy is suggesting we stop using lead ammo based upon a so called study from some biased group of bird lovers with no proof of what they studied, and no peer review. Apparently, these trumpeter swans are leaving shoreline and water areas where only steel or non-tox shot has been used for a generation, and they are feeding in uplands and ingesting the very sparsley scattered lead shot that was fired at pheasants or chukars. One can only marvel at the strange evolutionary process that evolved swans with a preference to expend large amounts of energy seeking out widely scattered lead far away from normal feeding areas to fill their gizzards. Of course, this report does not specifically blame lead shot as the villian which killed about 25% of the total population in this particular county. The source of the alleged lead is not mentioned at all. But even if it was from mining activities or industrial waste or remnants of tetraethyl lead from vehicles and aircraft, that does not stop the narrow minded Deeble from suggesting a ban on lead shot everywhere. Hell, those swans may have eaten the four pounds he recently claims to have deposited on a trap range. I am not suggesting that lead is not a toxin. Not now, not ever. I am saying that it is not anywhere near the problem some of these zealots claim it is, and the alternatives will have a far greater negative impact. RHD45 mentions some police officers who had to undergo "painful treatments" to get lead out of their systems after being poisoned in an unventilated indoor range. I have a friend who had to undergo chelation therapy to remove lead from his system. His high blood lead levels came from years of exposure at a battery manufacturer where he routinely blew lead dust out of electrical panels without even a respirator. He reports that his chelation therapy was not at all painful, and his lead levels are within a normal range now even though he continues to be exposed to lead, just not so much as before. RHD45 also tells of reading a study that claims Blackhawk county Iowa conservation people found 60 out of 130 dead eagles had lead poisoning. Was this in one year or the total for fifty years? With almost 50% mortality from eagles eating fish and deer carcasses, it is astounding that eagle populations are increasing! Hopefully, the other 50% of eagles aren't feasting on fast food with trans fats. Sounds "fishy" if you stop and digest the so-called facts and numbers. Oh, tonight Fox News reported that 2009 was a record year for bird strikes by aircraft, and this number has been rising for some time. There were over 12,000 incidents last year including the one that put Cap'n. Sullenbergers' jet into the Hudson river. Figures lie and liars figure. And Grouse Guy... I think his real name is PETA Guy, and he doesn't want you shooting any of his precious bird friends with anything. Banning lead is the fastest way to approach that goal. The use of lies, bullshit, and junk science is OK because the ends justify the means.

Last edited by keith; 01/13/10 02:14 AM.

A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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So then Ben . . . why do you cite a study involving birds that are obviously NOT wild, when you're trying to make a point--or at least I think that's the point you're trying to make--about the threat to birds in the WILD from lead shot? Like I said, tossing stuff up against the wall to see what will stick. Well, that one just slid right off the wall. And by the way, there ARE wild chukar in Canada. Just not in Ontario.

I don't think anyone here has problems with lead shot restrictions for waterfowl, or for upland birds in areas that see a lot of use by waterfowl. Iowa already does that, for example. But the MT restriction is a BLANKET restriction to ALL WMA's. How many of those WMA's consist of waterfowl habitat? And can you show studies involving WILD upland birds, shot on either public or private property (NOT on preserves, please!) in which a significant percentage of those birds have ingested lead? Any reports of finding upland birds that have died, without having been shot, in which lead can be identified as the cause of their demise?

In recent years, the Dakotas and Minnesota have recorded their highest pheasant harvests in decades. If all the lead we've been tossing around for ringnecks for the last 90 years or so were really a threat to the pheasant population, how did those states end up with so many birds? How come the population hasn't evidenced a long-term decline? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Hey Keith:

Good one!

I just told my gal I've been accused of being a member of PETA, and she is laughing so hard she is choking on her toast and getting crumbs all over the zebra hide table cloth. She just cleaned up after dinner last night including scrubbing out the pot we cooked the venison meatballs in.

But like I said, this discussion ain't about me....

Ben

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The eagles in Iowa I mentioned died within the last 5 years. I have no dog in this fight but I do know that lead poisoning is serious stuff. The "pain" the police officers endures was reported in the article in the paper and I am just mentioning it. I do know the range was very poorly ventilated. I certainly am not trying to get lead shot outlawed anywhere,but I am aware that many years of shooting over certain areas will lead to the build up of lead shot.I have "mined" it out of the backstops on ranges myself.

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