doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Krupp barrel composition

I think you've summed it up but the cooker was probably in Liege. Most of the tubes on American makes which have Krupp, etal. almost always have some sort of Belgian tube maker's mark or initials which may be for the importer. I'd say Krupp, or a plant making steel from a Krupp recipe, provided the raw material in some form natural to the tube maker.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, after all the very interesting information I am happy to have a Beretta with
Böhler Antinit Steel barrels.

JC

JayCee:

What a funny that really made me chuckle and indeed for now, I don't know of any Boehler counterfeits and I use that term loosely regarding Krupp's recipe, but Geno did indicate that the Izhevsky facility did have a similar recipe.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I see I conflated the armour hardening process at Homestead with the geographical origin of production of Krupp-Essen marked barrels for early Fox shotguns. I retract my misinterpretation of the evidence. Perhaps Essen denotes "made in Essen" and perhaps it doesn't as stamping barrel top likely wouldn't survive white tube to struck barrel. I assume the stamp was put on in Philly by someone at Fox. I stick by my assertion that those who are going to collect pre-WWthis and pre-WWthat probably would be well-served by accepting the simple lack of pre-cognition of people living at that time. Same goes for the "militaria" of enemies past and present. The fault is not in our artifacts.

jack

Also only the best were imitated or imulated, i.e., imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1911 Fox BE #177XX has "KRUPP FLUID STEEL MADE BY" top right breech area in italic serif font. Underside both barrels fwd. of flats: "-FLUID-STEEL-KRUPP-ESSEN- 4" italic sans serif font with exception of barrel wgt no. "4" which is awfully deep to have survived finish striking from a marked raw tube. Right side barrel flats at least 3 strikes of the Fox Proof oval and left side "B 177XX" struck over the Fox Proof oval. No evidence of obscure initials Belgium-side. Files marks on forend lug and scraper marks underrib and adjacent on barrels sure speak All-American to me. The top barrel stamp matches Daryl's. I have no idea what's "supposed" to be found on the underside. Lots of folks know how to use stamps.

jack

As am I with my 1960 era Sako Forrester L579 in .243Win. with its 22" Bofors Steel barrel. Kraut steel making is good, as was ours- whether in 1905 or 1945- but even wonder why in WW11 the Krauts went overboard to protect the Svedes-Jah? because Sweden has the best ore concentrations for both tool steels and stainless- and the Krauts used plenty of Svede ore for engine bearing grade steels and other special alloy needs of wartime ordnance--

Now in the USA during that same time, a small town in mid-central PA was a very high priority for the Krauts- if their plans to launch either long range bombers or missles from their subs had developed- Not Philly, Not Pittsburgh- Latrobe (Home of the greatest golfer of all time, IMO- Arnold Palmer) and Rolling Rock Beer- and Carpenter Technology Steel Mills- again, like with Sweden, that area in PA produced high grade ores.

We used almost exclusively Carpenter tool steels in my Grandfather's shop- oil, air and water hardening- they were one of the first to color code the bars for easier ID-and I see from a careful reading of my 1981 Brownell's issued Brophy book onLC Smith Specifications, Carpenter steels called out as first preference by both Hunter Arms Co.- and even post 1945 with Marlin.

I have 4 older graded pre-1913 LC Smith, all 12 gauge- I have yet to see a LC Smith in any of the gauges they produced with Krupp Steel. A friend has a BE 12 gauge Fox made in 1915- with Krupp Steel barrels-beautiful gun indeed..

I haven't seen any info to the contrary and invite any and all info from this side of the pond on tube sourcing, but pre-WWI, almost all accounts give that all(I'm sure there are exceptions) American double makers less Remington & Winchester, sourced their tubes abroad "in the rough". That is why they fought so hard to keep the "single tubes bored in the rough state" on the free list. And every time there was a potential tariff there was a huge amount of wailing & gnashing of teeth which entailed a letter to the tariff folks. Post WWI, that was a totally different story as the American makers had to look at home for sourcing because the sourcing connections/routes were non-existant.

A few accounts give that Krupp tubes were acquired at the facility in Essen but I do not think that to be the case as Krupp only made big guns and not small arms. To my limited knowledge Krupp did not "rough bore" any tubes for smallarms.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just late night speculation, but what's the chances of ingot importation? Possibly another tariff end run, post WW1 and fitting with reconstruction of the europe? Certainly, Belgians weren't the only tribe capable of making a round bar with a nice hole in it.

How many of you still remember razorblades made with "Sheffield steel" in the sixties? I don't imagine that meant the bladss were made across the pond. But it could have been anything from a recipe to actually manufactured complete in Sheffield.

Probably backtracking, but the industrial espionage and more legit hiring of imigrant steel engineers/scientists occuring in the industrial age and into the war yrs, certainly resulted in American steel industry's ability to compete with Euro steels. Also, the US gov't employed industrial espionage/talent stealing itself in many strategic war capacity areas. Metals were very likely one of those areas. While the famous Euro steels were legendary, American steels proved time and again to be the match or better than them in war machines, apparently without creating mysticism comparable to the European makers. That mysticism continues today in the gun biz. CSM still offers "Krupp" barrels at a premium that has no apparet functional value, just a mark on the barrel.

The long run of MIL Specs of the US (AN, NAS, MS, MIL, etc.) created the finest manufacturing system in the history of man. The recent demise of the MIL Specs was purely a economic decision, probably led by the likes of Teddy to fall into line with the EU ISO crap that did nada to advance the US manufacturing, but cost untold sums to implement. A big early step toward a "new world order" IMO.

RWTF, you can keep the rough stock Rolling Rock. It's beer, and there is not much more you can say about it than that. Arnold Palmer is indeed a living legend, not only as a golfer, but a man of many talents and acheivements, including aviation records.

But the Belgians were the only klan capable of making a quality round bar with a nice hole in it at a price-point and that's the key. The had the craftsmen; they had the machinery and they had the market. Baldwin Brothers( http://books.google.com/books?id=9n7PAAA...;q=&f=false ), William Henry Cole & Son(Baltimore Hardware), Henry Keidel & Co(Baltimore Hardware), William Read( http://books.google.com/books?id=igBEAAA...;q=&f=false ), Joseph Giles Riga(possibly directly to Belgium), Perry, Ryer & Company all had the connections which may not have been straight to Belgium but to the Netherlands or Switzerland and then on to Belgium. It was, and still is all about economics.

I had considered ignot importation, and it is still a very, very small option, but consider a gunmaking center churning out 200k, 500k tubes a year, maybe PeteM knows who many tube Liege could turn out a year. If it's pre-WWI, you are importing patternwelded tubes, why turn to another source for fluid steel. Daly would have done it if it was feasible out of Germany and that's why he fought so hard for multiple tube import(actually joined/completed) while the rest of the American contigent fought him and the U.S. of A. was right there in the middle with their had out. "Forged" was the politically correct term of the day, in addition to "rough bored", and when fluid steel tubes began being imported( http://books.google.com/books?id=bfxDAAA...els&f=false ), it had to be proven that the tubes were "forged". William Henry Cole & Son(Baltimore Hardware), Henry Keidel & Co(Baltimore Hardware), Daly, William Read, Joseph Giles Riga, Perry, Ryer & Company( http://books.google.com/books?id=9n7PAAA...els&f=false ) all were businessmen first and maybe a collector of guns 2nd. At the same time Joseph Giles Riga was also doing the same with rifled tubes: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9501E7D91E31E733A25756C1A9609C946897D6CF (select "Full Article") and info on what led up to it - http://books.google.com/books?id=3fcWAQA...els&f=false (I would guess Mauser Krupp steel tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse