doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best / strongest double shotgun action ever made?

OK Miller, he didn't originate it. He designed one, patented it, later, and built most of his guns that way. It would also seem he kept quite a few copy-cat makers of guns, based on his designs, from producing monoblock guns, for a long time.

Pete, I do understand the improvement thing has relaxed in recent years-which, is why I pointed out that I don't know if the patent granted to Francisque would have been considered enough of an improvement, to a sliding breech gun, back in the day, to justify him getting it. The year, 1910, is suspect-one year after the original was allowed to lapse.

Do you know, for fact? Again, I don't.

In the end, you don't sleeve a monblock gun, per say. Which, is where I was going. Thanks for clearing my mistake up. "Originator" is not correct.

GergSy is just jumping in (not with anything factual about a gun, per usual) because I showed him the Winged Mopars had fewer wins in NASCAR when they came out, and did not have the number of wins the (Gasp!) blue oval guys did in that era.
He still can't accept that idea. But it's easy to look up.

Al Gore? Didn't he invent the internet? And, doesn't he refuse to debate a few people about the existance of global warming?

And, again, jOe you are wrong-I'm trying to convince you that you don't sleeve a monoblock.

And, still waiting for Geno......
Best,
Ted

Hi again!
I just came in from the trip and let me remind you the first question of this topic:
Best / strongest double shotgun action ever made?
Does R.Darne sliding system is the best and strongest ever made?
Definatly not.
All I know about this photo, it's Darne Halifax and crack in chamber probably was result of double nitro powder load.

Geno...Maybe we need make new thread for Ted.

'Wierd'ist shotgun actions'.

Two more Darne's in a row of 4 guns and second from the right with visible gap berween barrels and sliding breech.
http://gunz.ru/img/602/prev/3.JPG

Ted;
I think you are somewhat beginning to see the light on this origin aspect, but let me add one more little bit. First off I am not a patent attorney & am certainly not up on all aspects of International Patent Laws.
Now "IF INDEED" Darne prevented anyone from building a basic monoblock design after the expiration of Pieper's Patent it would of necessity have been through some "Nuance" of French law & would have been applicable "ONLY" to some other French maker.
Certainly after the expiration of Pieper's Patent the basic concept of a monoblock was "Wide Open" for all.
In fact if Darne was granted a patent on a monoblock itself & not just some modification of it, it would have to be that Pieper had never applied for a French patent & France did not recognise it. Certainly the rest of the World did.

It doesn't seem like the monoblock caught on, outside of France, until after the 2nd world war, Miller. Regis Darne died in 1939. Manufrance made lots of monoblock guns after the war, and some before.
Why would Pieper patent the monoblock in the US, where he had little, if any competition, and not in France, where there would be huge competition with Belgian guns? Understand, I am not arguing your point, just questioning the logic at the time.
You keep saying "IF" where it concerns Regins Darne patenting the monoblock, of "Canons Frettés", and while I can't give you anything in digital picture form, with a number to go with it, I have found numerous copies of information stating that he did indeed do this. One, is a photocopy of a 50 year anniversary brochure on Regis Darne and his company, released by the St. Etienne chamber of commerce in 1931. Ten patents are listed, including those he held for a lightweight 1200 round per minute machinegun, intended for use on aircraft, in 1916, and his 1902 patent for, "Canons Frettés" or, as we call them today, monoblock barrels. That patent was renewed in 1922. The converging obturator disc was first patented in 1908.
When it is all said and done, Regis may simply have had a much better lawyer than anyone else, including Pieper.
Geno, every one of those guns you posted looks to have been seriously abused, even the non-Darnes. I can destroy any gun, if that is my intention. But, thank you for posting ONE picture of a low grade Darne in need of a gunsmith.
Best,
Ted

Ted;
I am not saying that Regis Darne did not obtain a patent on a monoblock of some kind. My "IF" is to whether it was the concept of the monoblock or just some mod of it.
As a good example I have read probably a thousand times that Samuel Colt "Patented the Revolver". If you read his patent you will find that he did in fact "NOT" patent the concept of a revolving cylinder. He in fact patented the hand & bolt, connected to the hammer for the purpose of rotating the cylinder & locking it in alignment with the bbl upon cocking the hammer. The concept of the revolving cylinder itself had been tried & used to some extent for at least Two Centuries prior to "Ol Sam Colt".
I was simply giving some possibilities of how He "Might" have received a patent on the monoblock principal, Still not sure that he did. Until such time as I can read that patent or here it from someone who understands it I have not the slightest. To be totally honest you are just too prejudiced to be a truly accredible account.
My real thinking is that Pieper did file his patent in France & that Darne simply filed for some slight modification. After Pieper's patent had expired then any maker could have used his features, just not the portion which Darne held the patent on.
There are of course still many makers even today who are still not using this design, many prefer other methods. In fact there are many who still consider the chopper lump superior to the monoblock.
I very seriously doubt that the use of the monoblock made a vast difference in how many guns Darne sold. I really think that the reason most either bought or did not buy a Darne was based primarily upon their view of the sliding breech, not the method of joining the bbls.

Have you ever seen an early Beretta catalog? Beretta was using the monoblock early on and continues to do so today.

Sears 1897 catalog showing a modified diana. Pieper had several sales outlets in the USA including SD&G. Notice the warning about fakes.


A later German catalog.


No one said Pieper did not file a French patent. I just do not have copies of it.

Handbook of patent law of all countries By William Phillips Thompson
1905
http://books.google.com/books?id=rjAMAAA...=gbs_navlinks_s

Belgium
Patents of Invention are granted for twenty years, subject, however, to the payment of an annual tax of twenty francs before the end of the first year, thirty francs before the end of the second, and so on, increasing ten francs each year. Payment of these taxes must be made within the calendar month during which they come due, but can, in default, be made good by paying the tax and an additional fine of ten francs any time within six months of the date they come due.

France
Patents of invention are granted for fifteen years, but fall void with any prior foreign patent for the same invention, except when obtained under the rules of the International Union.
Certificates of addition are granted for additions to, or improvements on, any existing patent, and to expire with the same.
The duration of patents can only be extended by special Act of Legislature, very rarely obtained.

Pete

No, it's wrong design. There are 2 small holes in chambers for pins rant holders and this area in chambers is very weak. Every engineer could tell you that.
On pic there were the same crack in this hole area and TIG welded later.
Metal thickness was so thin in this place any hot load could did this crack.
Take care with this French stuff.
http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/002620/2620174.jpg

Words of freakin' wisdom there Genie!! Suspect anything of Frenchie originins- remember the old couplet : "Oh. the French, they are a most curious race- for they fight with their feet and &^%$ with their face!!" Ooh, la la indeed..