doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Altering a shotgun vs future value?

We go through this discussion quite often, but here goes again. Just review past British auction catalogs. You will notice that "low mileage, high condition original British guns" bring multiples of the guns that have been back to the 'smith multiple times. Really no different than here except that the British companies made money reconditioning their and other's guns while that was seldom done stateside.

Another thing in the auction catalogs you will notice is that there are guns with below recommended minimum wall thickness [.020"], but they have passed proof and thus can be sold in Britain. These don't compare with guns of .010" greater wall thickness as far as prices realized.

At some point these guns become the Norma Desmonds of the gun world.

"All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up."

Daryl, if "low mileage" and accompanying high condition indicates little use--which it probably does in comparison to a gun that's been back to the maker numerous times, but well-maintained--then it's logical that such a gun should have a higher value. On the other hand, guns of relatively equal "mileage", one basically ignored, the other frequently "freshened up"--I believe you'll find that the latter will command a higher value. "Never a screw turned" seems to mean a good bit more on this side of the pond. To me, if a gun's been used a good bit, I start to wonder why the screws were never turned, and what one might find when they are.

What do you mean by that?

Larry, I would rather pay the big buck for a Purdey with a good coat of light rust that had never been opened up by an idiot than to pay the same for a shiny Purdey with all evidence of heavy use and abuse covered up by gosh knows whom. As Daryl implies, the buyer knows the difference and the good guns sell for multiples of the price of bad ones. By the way, do you own a wall thickness gauge and a zero to one inch vernier caliper? Do you use them when you look at a gun you are thinking of purchasing?

The thing is, eightbore, if you buy a Purdey at auction in England, chances are pretty good that it was maintained by Purdey's. If one can afford to buy a Purdey, not likely that one would entrust it to the local village idiot, and I'd trust the guys who made the guns to do proper maintenance work. (Fact is, if you're talking a Purdey, you might even be able to ask them whether the gun was ever back to the shop.) Would you buy a car with 100,000 miles if it had never had an oil change?

I own a caliper and a bore and choke gauge. (Measuring the bore on Brit and some European guns, where the original gauge is stamped--12, 13/1, etc--will pretty much tell you whether significant honing has been done. Will also establish whether the gun in question is still in proof, as far as bore diameter is concerned.) Don't own a wall thickness gauge. If I'm buying a gun on which MBWT is a concern, then I'll either only buy from a dealer I trust who measures the walls, or I'll have them measured by a gunsmith. The only Brit guns I currently own (which are the only ones in my inventory where wall thickness would be a concern) were measured by Hugh Lomas. Plenty to spare, thanks.

I have been to several gun auctions in the UK and really enjoyed them. As for buying one of the big 3 in auction, NO WAY!

No offense, but I think you gentlemen are comparing apples to oranges. When we are talking about the guns we would buy, for the majority of the folks on this board, I think things get a little out of whack when we start bringing up Purdeys in England. Most of us on here won't be going to England and few of us will be shopping at Purdey's. I just think that the majority of the people on this board would be collectors of- 21s, Model 12s, Ithacas, LCs and those type of guns. And I think if the majority of the serious collectors or even the common shooter who is looking for a nice gun to take to the skeet range, finds a gun at a gun show that he can see has been tampered with, he is going to wonder who has been changing it and will be afraid of it shooting around a tree. I know I would. Now, if it has been recheckered or the wood has been refinished, that is one thing. But, if someone is at a gun show and runs a gauge down a barrel and sees a shotgun that is supposed to have a full choke has been reamed out to cylinder, he will probably pass. Some might not. Then again, it depends on the price and a few other things. But most people will jump on a gun if they think it is 100% before they will buy one that has been changed. Especially if it is an American classic. Don't you think?

When we discuss refinishing English guns it seems someone always go right to Purdey's, Boss & H&H? A different game completely, one most of us don't play. I was referring to the vast majority of English guns that are bought & sold and actually get used. Stuff you see at Hill Rod & Gun. Using guns.
For example, some years back I bought a Chas. Hellis 2" 12ga. I had it looked over by my usual guru who said the barrels had been reblacked but done well, bores and wall thickness were good. I figured it was something that I wouldn't have to consider having done for some time, a bonus if you will. It's a gun I bought for it's performance and I am very happy with it. I had the right tube opened and a pad added. Currently I can sell it for twice what I paid for it and it's hardly original.

OTOH, for about the same money I paid, I probably could have gotten a high condition field grade/ Grade 1 "American Classic", Parker, LC, Ithaca, Fox. Had I altered the chokes and put a pad on I probably could resell t for 1/2 of what I paid. American are valued for their originality, English for their performance. At levels most of us play at. If we're going to talk Big Three, I agree, originality is at a premium, but not nearly as much as for American Classics.

My comment were addressed to using guns, I gave up smoking long ago but 8B, I still know where you can get some if you like...

Rob, unless someone were to access the company records on the gun in question--and I think a fairly small percentage of buyers would do so on a Parker Trojan or V Grade, LC or Ithaca Field Grade, or Fox Sterlingworth (that would be the vast majority of American classic "using guns")--they probably wouldn't spot altered chokes other than on the Ithaca, which is the only one on which factory chokes would have been marked. Were I selling one of those, I'd tell the buyer what the chokes are, but I'm not sure I'd volunteer that I had them opened. Those guns are shooters, and to me, 100% originality should only be an issue in an extremely high condition example: your elusive "closet queen" collector gun. Personally, if I'm the buyer, I'm more interested in a "using gun" on which the chokes HAVE been altered, if the job was well done and if the original chokes were as tight as they are on most American classics. Saves me the cost of having it done.

When we're talking American vs British guns, there's also another distinction we need to make: Percentagewise, there are many times more British "bests" on the market than there are their American equivalent (the very highest grades made by Parker, Ithaca, Elsie, Fox, etc). And because there are so few true "American bests", and because more of them are regarded strictly as collectors' pieces rather than a gun one would take out and shoot, then especially in the case of those high grade American guns, I agree that original, unaltered condition is extremely important. Your average Purdey, Boss or H&H Royal is far more likely to have been shot one heck of a lot (driven shoots, especially back "in they day", involved a bunch of shooting) than a very high grade American classic.