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Forums10
Topics38,481
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Most Online1,335 Apr 27th, 2024
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
Beautiful engraving, gorgeous wood, but 5 grand?
Just My Humble Opinion......George
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Better deal than the Hussey yer pushing.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 455
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 455 |
Dang and to think I peddled mine for a measley 3K three years ago in a booming market...Better wood too.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127 |
Hey Ted, Just for fun; if it were yours and you were selling, what would your buy it now price be? -Jim
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390 |
How many double shotguns did Tobin produce? Did they produce lower field grade models with little or no engraving?
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108 |
Tobin Arms Mfg Co. (Ltd) -- I may be the guru of Tobin as I've had four articles published on that company. I discovered Tobin in the 1980's when I was researching things Fox at the Library of Congress and feeding my findings to Mike McIntosh for his book on Ansley H. Fox. Mike encouraged me to continue the Tobin search and write about them. Frank Major Tobin, Canadian by birth, was a gun salesman for various companies around the U.S. from the 1880's to after the turn of the century. Somewhere he acquired the rights to a shotgun patent of Clarance Wollam of San Francisco and set up a company in Norwich, Connecticut, to manufacture the gun. Tobin operated there from 1904 to 1909, then moved to Woodstock, Ontario, Canada, 1910 to about 1916. My Tobin articles were published in Volume Five, Issue 1, and Volume Eight, Issue 1, of The Double Gun Journal; Volume 39, Number 12, May 1994 of The Gun Report; and Volume 34, Number 3 of (the Canadian Journal of) Arms Collecting. Volume 14, Number 1 of Canadian Journal - Arms Collecting reproduced Tobin catalogue #311 from the factory in Woodstock. Cornell now offers a repro of that catalogue. The Tobin gun was offered in 12- and 16-gauge and a variety of grades from $30 to $250 with options of ejectors and a single-selective trigger. Tobin also made guns for the trade, that don't say Tobin anywhere on them, but they can be confirmed by the patent stamp -- PAT. MAY 23-93 AND PATENTS PEND'G. Serials to a bit over 11,000 were made in Norwich, and above that in Woodstock. There is quite a bit of overlap as we've found 16-gauges in the 9xxx range with the Woodstock address. G.B. Crandall, a gunsmith in Woodstock that had worked for Tobin, took over the remains and from about 1922 billed himself as successor to Tobin Arms. He probably assembled around 500 guns in the high 18,xxx and low 19,xxx range until he retired in 1951. I believe he was more noted for his varmint rifles.
In the 1908 A&F catalogue they have a page dedicated to their Tobin guns -- "We are carrying guns made especially for us by the Tobin Arms Company which we highly recommend as the very best guns on the market for the money." A&F's grades were --
No. 02 - $25,
No. 03 - $37.50,
No. 12 Special Trap Gun - $53.50, and
No. 54 Featherweight Gun - $49, with
ejectors were $13.50 extra.
It appears that these equate to the regular Tobin No. 20 Standard grade, No. 30 Expert Grade, No. 21 Trap Grade, and No. 40 Featherweight Grade. A collector I know has a very high grade Tobin two barrel set marked "Abercrombie & Fitch Special Grade" on the rib.
Tobin guns have both a grade name and number, with an E, T, or ET appended when fitted with ejectors, single trigger or both. I've never seen a Tobin stamped with a grade marking, and about half of them have engraving which doesn't match the cuts in any of the catalogues I've found. The Norwich catalogues I have list --
Model Grade, No. 60 $150, No. 60E $175, No. 60T $175, and No. 60ET $200.
Model Grade, No. 55 $80, No. 55E $100, No. 55T $100, and No. 55ET $120.
Special Pigeon Grade, No. 50 $70, No. 50E $90, No. 50T $90, and No. 50ET $110.
Trap Grade, No. 21 $60, No. 21E $80, No. 21T $80, and No. 21ET $100.
Premium Grade, No. 45 $55, No. 45E $75, No. 45T $75, and No. 45ET $95.
Featherweight Grade, No. 40 $45, No. 40E $65, No. 40T $65 and No. 40ET $85.
Expert Grade, No. 30 $40, No. 30E $60, No. 30T $60, and No. 30ET $80.
Standard Grade, No. 20 $30.
In 1907, the Jobber Price of the highest Tobin, a Model Grade No. 60ET was $109, with a net selling price of $160 and a list price of $200. The lowest Standard Grade No. 20 had a jobbers price of $18, a net selling price of $22.50 and a list price of $30. During those pre WW-I years all the companies seemed to have high list prices and a much lower actual net selling price -- I've got similar info on Parker Bros, Lefevers, L.C. Smiths, A.H. Fox and Remingtons.
As long as I'm on a roll here, after the move to Canada, the grades were
Standard Grade No. 40 -- list price $40
Black Diamond Grade No. 55 -- list price $55
Trap Grade No. 70 -- list price $70
Pigeon Grade No. 100 -- list price $100
Model Grade No. 200 -- list price $200
Regal Grade No. 250 -- list price $250
Ejectors or single selective trigger were each $20 extra from No. 55 to 200 and $25 each on the No. 250. In Canada, Tobin offered a Leader Grade No. 25 for $25 that was a hammer gun. It used the same frame, but with a coil-spring driven hammer lockplate in place of the hammerless sideplate and frame-mounted hammer and V-mainspring. They also offered a single shot .22 rimfire “Boy Scout Rifle.”
I've also received letters from collectors in Australia describing Tobin guns marked for W.E. Ekins, Adelaide.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,749 Likes: 744
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,749 Likes: 744 |
Well, Twister's Pa, if the gun were mine, I'd have a tough time selling it it-I'm one of just a few "Tobinites" that seem to like the guns, this, inspite of the fact, that I've come to the conclusion that the design is totally un-suitable for modern, smokeless, high pressure ammunition. Mine gets CIP spec 16 gauge ammunition, or an occasional box of older RST low pressure stuff. I have a stash of both laid in for my own gun, which, is nearing or at the 100 year old mark. That said, I'd price the gun at about what I think it could be sold more than once for-and, $7500 will buy A LOT of Parker, Lefever or LC Smith that at least a few more folk would would be interested in buying, let's just say far more folk than would be interested in a Tobin, regardless of grade/rarity. "Rare" doesn't automatically make something more valuable. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Frank Major Tobin's personal gun, also a 12, but, much higher grade than this, sold for considerably less to one of our board members. You are free to cough up whatever you think the thing is worth-my advice would be to make note of all the Parker's that aren't hitting their reserves at auction lately. They are quite numerous. Best, Ted
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108 |
Just cause I have the time, here are some pictures of various Tobin grades. I only have pictures of a few of the grades, because often as not the guns I've come across don't match the pictures in the catalogues. No. 20 Standard Grade -- Black Diamond Grade -- No. 40 Featherweight Grade -- No. 55 Model Grade -- No. 55ET Model Grade -- No. 60T Model Grade, Frank Tobin's gun -- A Canadian-built No. 70E Trap Grade -- A gun marked only with the word "Tournament" -- Canadian built gun of unknown grade --
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,749 Likes: 744
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,749 Likes: 744 |
Hey, Dave, Has any more light been shed on who the "Tournament" grade guns were built for? I've got to believe there was a hardware store or sporting goods retailer that will be shown to have had their own line of doubles that just happen to have the Tobin pat. date on the watertable. Thanks. Best, Ted
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