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Initials Make of Gun Maker Mark Date Range Serial #s
E.W. Daly None circa - 1876 7 (E. Werner, more than likely related to Otto A. Werner, a gunmaking company listed up to 1900. The Werner klan had a long established history in gunmaking having approx. 10 folks listed as having some function in the gunmaking trade in the mid 1800s. Georg Gottlieb Werner owned a weapons forge while Jacob Werner was into forging tubes/pipes along with Adam, Gottgetreu, Johann Michael as master gunmakers.)

L.G or E.G Daly None circa - 1878 105(I haven’t found too many variable here but I’m leaning toward the S. August Grüber folk as about 30 years prior to this stamp August was listed as a master tube/pipe maker with a pipe/tube making hammer. Greifeld is a possibility and Greifelt(I realize a slight spelling difference) & Company wasn’t formed by Friedrich Greifelt and Emil Schlegelmilch(also owned Rosch, Steyer & Company probably early on with Stephan Gabriel Rosch, master gunmaker) until 1885. Ernst Grüber is my best guess for the “E.G.” stamp but Eisenwerke Gaggenau of Baden began producing metal wares in 1879 but for now I don’t think the “E.G.” stamp would be for a firm.)

K.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1880 - 1885 2015, 2370, 2463, 2568(I’m still leaning toward a K. (“Karl”) Schlegelmilch of Heinrich & K. Schleglemilch or Heinrich K. Schlegelmilch, gunmaker. Heinrich Schlegelmilch is listed in the mid 1800s as a borer/driller, while Caspar was a master tube/pipe maker and Stephan Christian Schlegelmilch being a master borer/driller. Seeing that the name conjures up gunmaking, the town of Suhl also a symbol of gunmaking and that the Schlegelmilch family could by themselves produce a finished weapons product with Fredrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch being just one of the master gunmakers; I therefore, assume that the boring/drilling was an integral part of gunmaking or finished tubes were a subset of the boring/drilling trade. Thieme(Adolph) & Schlegelmilch(Ernst was at the helm circa 1900) was probably involved. Schilling is still a possibility but the Ockam’s Razor principle is leading me to Schlegelmilch.)

A.B Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1885 - 1890 2706, 3551, 3665(August Blatt of Albrechts is a strong candidate along with Alex. Barthelmes of Zella-Mehlis, who was probably a decendent of Leopold Barthelmes(ss), a master gunmaker of Zella in the mid 1800s. Emil Barthelmes founded a gunmaking business in Zella in 1854.)

E.E. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1886 2929, 3044(Emil Eckoldt founded his business in 1876 and by circa 1930 Robert Schilling was involved with Emil(probably Junior) and Hugo)

R.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1888 3342(Robert Schlegelmilch? Or Richard Schüler?)

J.W. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1890 - 1892 3646, 3994(Julius Will, younger brother of Oscar Will who had a founding date of 1844 regarding metalworking and circa 1900 was peddling Lindner or Lindner type action doubles under Venuswaffenwerk)

J.W. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1900 264, 439, 676, 766, 792(same as above)

R.S. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1915 270, 300, 361, 380, 458, 584, 586, 650, 1092, 1109, 1560, 1586, 1650, 1655, 1730, 2048, 2138, 2158, 2362, 242X, 2437, 2463, 2479(I’m still going to hold with Robert Schlegelmilch)

M.S. or S.W. Daly Unknown Aug 1924 11574(Moritz Schilling???)

#1366, Hammergun, crown, "AS"(Alfred Schilling was born in 1876 so I’m going to assume he was too young. I had earlier thought August Gottlieb Schüler/August Schüler-1850, who was more than likely a relative of Friedrich Wilhelm or Christian Friedrich Schüler who had a manufacturing and fabrication business in 1835. I may have mixed August & Friedrich, but I think I’ve seen it posted that August dates back to 1835 and that is incorrect. Oscar & August Schüler formed a business in 1880 which was merged with or absorbed by August Schüler circa 1900. Oscar Schüler, or his heirs and assigns, looks to have migrated toward Richard Schüler to form a pre-WWI firm. Now on to who I really think the “A.S.” is stamped for: Albert Stobbe who began in 1865 and was operated by the 1930s by his widow Emilie Stobbe and son Rudolf Stobbe(educated guess).)

#3494, Crown, Diamond, "LE"(ah, the “E”s. I’ll guess the first name to be Louis or Ludwig and the last name to possibly be connected to one of the following:
W. Ebert
Richard Eck
Otto Eck
Emil Eckoldt
August Eckstein
Gottlieb Edhardt(maybe a different spelling for Eckholdt???)
Ant. Ehmann
August Endter
Ed. Essiger
Carl Eyring.

And there were the Eckebrecht brothers, Heinrich & Johann, who owned Heinrich Scherping circa 1897.


#1308, HAL, 185, blurred, cannot decypher.

#1866, HAL, Diamond, "RS"(Robert Schlegelmilch)

#1440, HAL, 185, "RS"(Robert Schlegelmilch)

#1550, HAL, Diamond, "RS" THIS GUN IS MARKED "1" OF A PAIR. ANYONE KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS OF #1551?(Robert Schlegelmilch)

I have one in the 3300 range with “W.M.” which was more than likely for Wilhelm Moritz who began in 1869. I can’t remember exactly which maker, but I think he was involved with or purchased one of the gunmaking firms in Suhl.)

On many of the German tubes one will run across the stamp of a Gothic “J”( J), especially on Sauer longarms and I think it to be for the Jäger klan with Johann Georg Jäger having a pipe/tube forge in the mid 1800s and George junior and Valtin begin master borers. Now if could have been the Jung gunmaking folk, but most of them were master gunmakers without an emphasis in pipe/tube making.

But of all the listings I haven’t determined what trade is defined by “Könglich Gewehr-Revisor” (rifle inspector???) and the following had the title:

Gottlieb Bäftlein
Franz Bräutigam
Gottfried Diz(?)el
Ernst Hopfe
Caspar August Gottetreu Klett
Capsar Köhler
Ferdinand Nothnagel
Caspar Schaller
Melchior Schlegelmilch
Johann Friedrich Schneppe
Stephan Triebel

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/07/09 02:33 PM.
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For any of you folks still following this exercise in futility, from the mid to late 1800s, and possibly earlier, gun makers in the tube trade had the term "Rohr" attached to their function. So a "Rohrschleifer" would be a barrel grinder or emouleur de canons de fusil(French). While a tube finisher would be a "Polirer", a fine borer or finishing borer. The Werner and Wagner folks were big into tube making so the stamp with a last initial of a "W.", other than "J.W.", would more than likely be for either one of the Werner or Wagner klan. From the mid to late 1800s the following had the listing of "Polirer":

Gottfried Wagner
Theodor Wagner
Christian Werner

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Last edited by ellenbr; 06/07/09 10:16 PM.
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I had earlier thought August Gottlieb Schüler/August Schüler-1850, who was more than likely a relative of Friedrich Wilhelm or Christian Friedrich Schüler who had a manufacturing and fabrication business in 1835. I may have mixed August & Friedrich, but I think I’ve seen it posted that August dates back to 1835 and that is incorrect. Oscar & August Schüler formed a business in 1880 which was merged with or absorbed by August Schüler circa 1900.


Let me attempt to clarify something regarding August Shüler. I’ve re-read info and GGCA Journals containing info on the firm August Shüler and in 1935 there was an advertisment noting that August Schüler had been in business for 100 years. Of course it is not possibly for the same August Schüler that we associate with German longarms to be that person and he took the reins of a company circa 1850 and the name could have been “August Schüler”(or renamed to) as he was the younger brother of Christian Friedrich Schüler who indeed did have a gunmaking business in 1835. Possibly their father or grandfather was named August Schüler and Christian Friedrich’s business was named “August Schüler” or either August Schüler took over the business and renamed it circa 1850.

Gunmakers who made their example to attain the rank of master, knew what it took to make each individual component of the example but probably only made a couple of components himself which were in his area of expertise. Then if he was a top rank maker or maker to a royal court, he might have made a longarm or some of the components. Then knowing what the end product would look like, he then formed either a temporary conglomerate, or perhaps semi-permanent one, of tube makers, frame source, lock makers, stock source, finisher and engraver. I think Ernst Steigleder, W. Forester, O. Geyger, H.A. Lindner, etc. are such examples. So, where would one source the components? Well, Suhl and Zella Saint Blasii, including Mehlis, had formed a protected craftsmen bubble by not having a government arsenal nearby, by converting to sporting arms for the most part and by embracing mechanization; therefore, the area was about the only choice. In Suhl components could be sourced from the lower rung all the way up to the most expensive due to the fact that a broad range of craftsmen were at a GC(general contractor’s)’s disposal. The GC could have been in Suhl or could have been afar. All of the aforementioned craftsmen at one time could have made a sporting piece for anyone in the world but it just was not efficient, practical or cost effective. So these craftsmen migrated from a maker, to a quality control person like Lindner, Aydt and others and possibly on to a firearms merchant having their name roll stamped on the top rib. With all that said is it possible to equate a Lindner longarm grade and initials, i.e., did Lindner source specific craftsmen for specific grades or could all sources produce any grade?

Oh and what happened to Daly's network? Well one of the high cost of WWI was the lost of mastercraftsmen and potential mastercraftsmen, as was the case with H.A. Lindner, who was left with no heirs or assigns. Charles Daly expired in 1899 and the structured weave of the network of craftsmen, general contractor and market fell apart, with WWI also disrupting the conduit of supply and demand. Then the 3rd Reich was able to burst Suhl's protective craftsmen bubble by discontinuing target competitions with true sporting arms and forcing the craftsmen to contribute mainly to the up and coming war effort.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/10/09 09:41 PM.
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Raimey,

SUPERIOR job on the information in the posts above - very interesting.

Ken

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Ken:

Thanks as I'm just trying to put some info together. The situtaion wasn't any different in England. Take Purdey for example: all the components of their longarm weren't made in-house as they at the very least sourced their locks from Chilton, unless an example is say a post 1980 one.

I will admit that there is one exception as far sourcing weapons from a network of highly skilled craftsmen. That exception is WWII, which leveled the playing field literally. True there may have been some left over stock that wasn't absconded by a passer-by, but for the most part firms had to build the end product from the ground up to and including the bead sight.

The following synopsis is an attempt to add additional info to explain the demise of the coveted Lindner-Daly longarms. I, or any one else, can start a new Charles Daly or S, D & G thread if need be or desired.


April 4th, 1859 four Schoverling brothers, Hans Hermann, Johann Rudolph, Johann Wilhelm and Heindrick August Schoverling, departed Osnabruck, Germany headed to American. Hans Hermann was in the tobacco industry and I think Heindrick was also. There was a Schoverling Tobacco and/or Schoverling Company just prior to Heindrick August Schoverling and Charles Daly crossing paths which resulted in Schoverling & Daly in 1862/5?. They had several addresses but they all seem centered near 302 Broadway and 84 Duane(I believe it was/is an intersection). Charles Daly, who acquired a MA from the College of the City of New York in 1855, was front and center until a fella named Joseph Gales of North Carolina joined their ranks in 1879. Schoverling(Heindrick August), Daly(Charles) and Gales(Joseph) purchased the quarters of John P. Moore & Son’s in 1888, which was at the same time S, D&G offered a drilling by the name of Charles Daly and Manhattan(??) in 32-20, 32-40, 38-55, 40-63 & 45-70, and set up shop in Moore’s quarters. Also at the time they were somewhat global by having an outlet/shop at 65 Weaman, Street, Birmingham, England. Things progressed on at a steady pace and fortunes were made as Charles Daly took delivery of a son named Charles Howard Daly on November, 6th, 1874 in New York. By 1894 I believe he had his PHD from Yale when the joined the firm of S, D&G(Obit. Records of Yale University 1925 may provide insight), 3 years after Heindrick August Schoverling expired while on a trip to Dusseldorf, Germany where at least one of his kids stayed and didn’t make the return trip. So Charles Howard Daly joined at an optimum time and then his father Charles Daly expired on January 11th, 1899(Born October 12, 1839 - there was a justice of attorney named Charles P. Daly who also expired in 1899):

Charles Daly – NY Times – January 14, 1899
“Charles Daly, senior member of the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, died Jan. 11 at his home, in Summit, N.J. He had been at his office in New York until the usual hour, and spent the evening at home with his family. About 11 o’clock at(an) attack of apoplexy proved almost immediately fatal. Mr. Daly began his business career with the old firm of Tuffts & Colley about 1858, and afterward with Messrs. Sargent & Co., and later with Messrs. H. Boker & Co., whom he left in 1865 to join Mr.(Heindrick August) Schoverling. Mr. Daly was one of the incorporators and for many years President of the Marlin Firearms Company of New Haven, Conn. He was one of the organizers of the Hardware Club and took an active interest in its success, and was also a member of the Colonial Club. Mr. Daly was a member of the Presbyterian Church. He had been a widower for some ten years. A son and a daughter survive him – Charles Howard Daly and Mrs. R. Courtney King.”

By 1909 Charles Howard Daly was well established at S, D & G and S, D&G had the following folks:
Joseph Gales of North Carolina – President
Charles Howard Daly – Secretary & Treasurer
Director – Joseph Gales, Charles Howard Daly(Yale Grad), Theodore W. Stake & Frederic J. Wilbur

I found this Wikipedia site after I had composed this and it looks to be valid if there are any folks who question the info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms . So it looks as if S, D & G faultered at the end of WWI and may have also been a contributing factor to the demise of the Lindner-Daly Doubles & Drillings, etc.

I can't say for sure if Schoverling or Daly had the initial connection in Suhl, but for now I guess Schoverling unless H. Boker was the beginning for Daly.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/12/09 10:55 PM.
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I can't remember if PeteM, or someone else, sent this to me or if I found it in a quick search but it is a Daly 10 bore from the mid to late 1870s with a metal buttplate and interesting forend lug: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131145171 . But what of interest to me are the initials in the last few pics of "CFW". Usually, but as with German longarms there are always exceptions, 3 initials sometimes denotes the maker and his area/city. But for now and in this case I would attribute the work to one of the Werner boys, specifically Christian Werner. Now there were 2 Christian boys with one being a polisher and I guess his middle name to be Fredrich, the first name of a few of the Werner clan. If someone would post the pic of the initials I would greatly appreciate it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr

R.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1888 3342(Robert Schlegelmilch? Or Richard Schüler?)


I hadn't thought of looking thru the U.S. of A. patents so I burned some time this a.m. searching. Robert Schlegelmilch entered or looks to have been involved in several circa 1900. I've seen him listed in Meiningen and the following patents give another location:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c2pOAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ljcvAAA...cad=0_0#PPA2,M1

Info on Robert usually is connected to machine tools and I think Stephan Heinrich Schlegelmilch early on to have been a tube borer but is found also involved with machine tools. So I would guess Stephan Heinrich & Robert to either be father & son or for Stephan Heinrich to be an older brother. But at any rate the Schlegelmilch klan look to have been on the front end of the mechanization of boring tubes and were very capable of doing. Another set of Schlegelmilch folk were into porcelain and Stephan Heinrich & Robert appear to have developed grinding machines for their specific application which leads me to believe a similar grinding machine was developed or refined to finish gun tubes. And mechanization is about the only way he could have been Lindner's quantity tube source. At least I think he holds a majority in the stamped initials.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr

So I would guess Stephan Heinrich & Robert to either be father & son or for Stephan Heinrich to be an older brother.


Wrong on all accounts. Robert Schlegelmilch was the son of Ernst Friedrich and Friederike Luise Kessler. August Louis(armour at Spandau & credited with advances on the Gewehr 71/84 changing from 11mm to 8mm), Gottlieb were his brothers along with 3 sisters with one being named Gottlobine, now how would you like that name hung about you? A possbile Kessler connection? See a new Schlegelmilch Büchsenmacher Family thread or something of the like.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/21/09 08:28 PM.
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Have a gander at Mr. Jones' latest Lindner Daly acquisitions at http://www.bobjonesguns.com/inventory.asp#SHOTGUNS and this one in particular: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4514S . He must have stumbled upon a pile of Lindner Dalys.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Ken:

Have you seen any other Georg Lindner examples with "CFW" on the tubes? -
[img][/img]

from - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139012602

I think I've seen similar initials but for now I guess it to be Christian Friedrich Werner, that is if Friedrich was his middle name. I don't think the last letter "W" represents a city as it was surely sourced from Suhl/Zella Saint Blasii/Mehlis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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