doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Looking for info about this fine old shotgun.

Sorry everyone, I guess I hit the submit button twice.

You are absolutely correct about the nominal length of a shotshell being its fired length, not its loaded length, & unless excessively long a shell longer than gun is chambered for can normally be loaded with no signs for detection. It should be noted though no shell should be used in which the loaded length of the shell actually enters the cone. This can cause a resistance in opening of the crimp & bring on a drastic increase of pressure. This is most apt to occur using roll crimp shells being about ¼" longer than chamber. Also many British "2½" guns will have chambers of 2 9/16" (65mm) length or even 2 5/8". I know you said you are not planning on firing this gun, but it does need to be pointed out for certain a shell, particularlly a fold crimp as most present day shells are, can be loaded freely in a chamber considerably shorter than the nominal length of the shell with no resistance to show it. This does not mean the "Should" be shot, but they quite definitely "Can" be.

I agree. The danger is in loading a shell who's uncrimped length is too long for the chamber. Roll crimped shells will be longer than folded crimped shells even though they both started out at the same length before being crimped. If the crimp unfolds or unrolls, as the case may be, into the cone, it will cause a constricted area and pressure will spike. I used to hunt deer in Iowa with a man who one day inadvertently grabbed a handful of 3" slug loads and fired them in his 2 3/4" gun. He got away with it, without ill effects, but it's certainly not a practice to be recommended. Also, I agree that smokeless loads should never be fired in a black powder proofed gun, Damascus barreled or otherwise. When I measured my chambers with a proper tool I learned that they were indeed too short for a 2 3/4" shell. They are in fact 2 5/8". Though I could probably cut off and skive, and then load 2 1/2" black powder shells for this gun I have no need, desire, or intention of doing so, and never did. Ever!

I just chambered and closed the breech on an old 2 3/4" 12 ga. roll crimped shell. As I said my chambers are long at 2 5/8". It's very old but I think it is loaded with smokeless powder. To fire this shell would be very dangerous, but I had no trouble closing the breech. But, a 2 3/4" shell is a 2 3/4" shell no matter what it"s loaded with. A roll crimped shell is of course longer than a folded crimped shell in the unfired condition. Once they are fired they will be the same length. The have to be; otherwise they are not 2 3/4" shells.

Your gun has some engraving under the breech balls that is similar to some JP Clabrough guns...which most, if not all were Birmingham proofed(regardless of the LONDON stamped on the ribs). The wood carving is a bit european, but I have a Clabrough that has a carved POW grip, go figure.

As 2piper said, it has the right proofs.

We see some similarities to other guns from the same time period and place of proof as well...might have been the English version of a "hardware store gun"?

Suggest a search for the name without a gun variable......might turn up as a general merchant. Might then back track to who made the guns?

Birmingham would seem to have been quite the "trade" back then, and who knows who traded what for what....would not count on finding out who made it. Might figure out who's casting the action was, who's locks....who engraved....

Search the name?

Best,
Mark

I tried searching for the name without a gun association as you suggest. Tried Wyman Company, Henry Wyman, Harry Wyman, etc. no luck. I get hits but nothing that points to guns, or hardware. There is a Wyman and Sons Ltd, London, but it's 1902 and seems to be no association with guns. Have seen several guns that show similarities but nothing dead on yet. The Scotts are very close, but I can't say for sure. Seem to be several with almost identical receivers. Tacky's R.Grove gun is very close, but different locks. I think it is a hardware store gun. I'll look up JP Clabrough tomorrow. I have learned here that it is a bar action side lock, with Birmingham proofs, made between 1875 and 1886, but may never know who made it. Any idea how to find out who cast the action, or made the locks without removing them? I'm kind of scared to try to remove the locks. A broken screw would be disastrous. What's a POW grip?

This is about the best I can come up with for a 'C' Grade Scott:



It must be remembered that identifying the Maker on some of these guns is just an educated guess based on certain features and general style. Often there were variations within the same model over a few years of time and being largely handbuilt there could be a lot of variation that way. The Strikers are very like those used by Scott on a number of his guns as are some of the other features on your gun. Guns by Bonehill also had similar srtikers on some models. Sometimes, when I get them in my hands the Maker becomes quite obvious. I only wish that a Gunsmith friend of mine would come out of the 19th. cent and into the 21st. and get on these forums. He will often look at a gun and see a couple of initials on the barrels and be able to say who the person was who worked on the gun and which firms they worked for. Sort of like Masonic symbols known only to pratitioners of that craft. You may not find an exact match to your gun in all the details because of the hand crafting that went into them and sometimes you may find a hybrid model with features from one and features from another as they would supply whatever was in demand by the person ordering the gun. Lagopus.....

The hammer in the picture looks very much like mine. But the firing pin screw and the curved edge of the lock plate are different. The receivers, and triggers are very close. As you say I'll probably never know for sure. The lack of a 12C inside a diamond and the NOT FOR BALL mark narrows it down to 1875-1886. I know it was proofed in Birmingham, and it is a bar lock action, chambered for 2 1/2" ammunition. Maybe someday someone will run across a gun with the angled edge to the lock plate, which seems to be a unique feature of my gun, and we can stir up the conversation again. I've learned a lot considering. Many thanks to all.

Alright folks I took this thing apart. I thought I would give it a try and if I encountered any resistance I'd quit and reverse course. It came apart remarkably easy. I've had much newer guns give me much more trouble.

I had hoped to find some sort of mark inside that would help identify the maker, but came up empty. There is not a mark, stamp or initial anywhere inside this thing. I did see a pair of notches on various parts, and screws. They appear to have been made with a graver as they are too sharp for a file. I think they are just marks made at the bench to identify which hand fitted parts go with each other.

I did clean all the parts in acetone and scrubbed them with a paint brush. I oiled everything with Break Free and blew off all the excess with compressed air, so it's cleaned and oiled now at least. I was very surprised at how little rust there was inside and the wood isn't oil soaked like a lot I've seen.

There is a mark on the fore end lug that I'm not sure about. It looks like a V of some sort, but seems a little strange for a V. Maybe it's just the angle the stamp was at when it was hit with the hammer.

On the sides of the fore end release lever it shows a crown, or something, and Patent on one side and something like EY & EDQE as near as I can tell, on the other. There may be more to the left of the E but I can't make it out. Maybe Largopus can shed some light on it. If it's an English patent perhaps it will narrow the date range at least.

Also I see that the screw that goes through the upper tang under the breech opening lever appears noticeably off center, and is threaded into the same hole as the separate screw that holds on the trigger plate.

Thanks again to all.

The writing on the fore end lever is most probably Deeley and Edge. They have patent 1422 of 1873 for "vertically sliding breech block and fore-end attachment for drop down guns". (source: Brown's London Gunmakers).