doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Looking for info about this fine old shotgun.

I measured the chamber length of this thing. They're right about 3 inches. So, a 2 3/4 inch shell would work. I'm thinking they are made for the American market. I read somewhere that English shells of the period were 2 1/2 inches.

Does anyone know anything about the locks? What type are they? Since there are screw ends showing behind the hammer there must be parts attached back there, so I'm guessing the main springs are forward of the hammer. You guys seem pretty knowledgeable about these things, can anybody shed some light on this?

I'll take a stab at it...

$500 or less to a knowledgeable double gun guy a $750 to $1000 to the less knowledgeable.

Proof diameters are measured and apply only at a point 9 inches from the breech.A 13G OR 13/1 gun would be deemed in proof upto.728 diameter maximum.When the size reached .729 diameter the right barrel would be declared," out of proof" and would require reproof as a 12G. In so far as the larger diameter measured at the muzzle of the right barrel; this could be an attempt by the manufacture or some other at a later time to increase the shot spread.
There should be included in the proof marks on the barrels, a stamped diamond, inside of which will be found the symbol 12/C. this is the mark that confirms the gun was chambered for 2 1/2 shells. If the diamond includes the symbol 12/LC the gun was chambered for shells longer than 2 1/2. Frankly I will be surprised if this is anything but a 2 1/2 chambered gun. So many time I have seen old guns rendered out of proof because the chambers have been extended.[Some old time gun smiths thought that by increasing chamber length they made the barrels/gun safe for shooting 2 3/4+ shells,instead they rendered the gun "Out of proof"!]

Looks like it will be a Bar Action as the pin for the mainspring is visible in the forward part of the bar. Chamber length will, most probably be 2 1/2", or at least that is the length of cartridge it was intended for. Some I have seen of that era made for the 2 3/4" cartridge were marked as such on the forend lump of the barrels. I don't think 3" chambered 12 bore guns existed at that time. It could be a product of the Midland Gun Co. except for the proof marks dating to 1887 because the MGC. didn't come into being until 1889. Some of the features are not dissimilar to those made by W & C Scott of that period. It's not unlike th Model 67 made from 1885 to 1914, especially the strikers, hammers and fastening. I'll have another good look at the photos, but that is my leaning on this gun. Scott's made guns for the Trade. I still come across a good many guns that I find unlisted as to the name on the action. Quite a few were sold by small country hardware stores who put their name on or even by individuals. Lagopus.....

Roy, When I measured the chamber length before I was guesstimating with a 6" scale. When I measure with a proper tool it comes to 2.675. A fired modern 2 3/4" shell comes to 2.655. So, it must be made for 2 3/4 in shells. I've crawled all over this thing with a magnifying glass and can't find any markings as you describe. There is a tiny mark on the fore end lump, but I can't make out what it is. It shows in the first set of pictures.

HomelessjOe, Thanks for the guess on the price. I think my brother paid less than $100 for it maybe 15 years ago.

lagopus, I think the "NOT FOR BALL" is authentic as it is accompanied by the 12B and 13M markings, and the alignment and spacing are right. I don't think it was made at a later date with separate letter stamps. Therefore, I think the date range of 1875 to 1887 is probably correct. Which would mean as you say it wasn't made by Midland. Tanky's gun is so similar to mine it's hard to believe at least the receivers were not made by the same company. Mine is evidently a few years older than tanky's. I think his gun also has the "NOT FOR BALL" mark, which would mean nether gun is a Midland since they wouldn't have used that mark in 1889. Could you post some pictures of W&C Scott guns? Thanks.

That was no "guess on the price"...if anything it was on the high side.

That gun might have been built down the road from W.C.Scott but it's no Scott.

How can you be so sure without even looking down the barrels? Wouldn't that make a big difference?

I own several W. & C. Scott's from this same time period...from what I can see of the quality of the gun I'd almost bet the gun or parts were of Belgium origin....

but you're not interested in selling so what does it matter ?