doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Looking for info about this fine old shotgun.

It's a double barrel 12 ga. It has a dolls head and two locking bars in the lower receiver. I believe it's called a side lock, with external hammers and double triggers. The barrels are removable. The breech is opened via a lever between the hammers in the conventional manner. It is finely engraved, and checkered, with a horn butt plate. On the right side plate it has "Hy Wynian" engraved, not stamped. On the rib above the barrels is engraved "London, Fine Damascus". Under the fore end are British proof marks; two for each barrel. Along with the proof marks the left barrel is marked "Not for Ball". A few years ago I came across a book of proof marks and learned that the British only used the marking "Not for Ball" between 1887 and 1899, so I have some idea of it's age.

Since one barrel is choked and the other not, I'm guessing it's an upland game gun.

I'm not interested in shooting it, even with black powder, but would be thankful for any further history about "Hy Wynian" anyone could offer. I'm wondering what it would be worth, though I'm not planning to sell it. Thanks to anyone who can shed some light.

We need pictures including the proof marks, to evaluate your gun! With no makers name of;"record" and the words, "London Fine Damascus"' on the rib, it is more than likely an inexpensive gun made for export.Probable source, Birmingham
"Hy Wynian", Is likely the name of the importer or hardware store that marketed the gun. Another outside possibility is that it was the name of the origional owner.

The 'Not for Ball' proof mark was used from 1875 to 1887, not 1887 to 1899, so your gun is a bit earlier than you thought. I agree with Roy Hebbes comments on source and quality. Middle to low grade Birmingham guns were often made without any name on them and a blank panel, the retailer could then order the guns with his name on them or have them 'finished' locally.
The 'Not for Ball' should be associated with a breech and muzzle measurement, eg. 12B, 14M. If this is missing, the Not for Ball may have been applied fraudulently to get the gun into the antique market and avoid restrictions on both the UK and US side of the pond.

Here's a C.F. Leader with Birmingham BP proofs marked "London Fine Damascus"



Makers/distributors marked barrels however they wanted, and in both Liege and Ferlach "London" usually referred to One Iron Crolle-Twist laminate also called Baker "Best London Damascus Twist" and "Barber's Pole"

First of all I had the name wrong, it's Hy Wyman and it's on both side plates. The engraving looks way too good to be a hardware store gun to me, but I know little of such things. Here are the pictures, and thanks. The first one is too big and the others are too small. Sorry.

I see what you mean. The Damascus looks a little finer in the pictures you show. Took me awhile to figure out how to post the pictures, but as you can see it does have the 12B and 13M markings. Very interesting, this is the most info I've been able to gather about this gun. I'm sure you're right about the dates also, it's been awhile since I looked it up in that proof mark book. My brother bought it at a "tag sale" in Mass. many years ago. I don't think he paid much for it. He'll be pleased to hear all this. As I said I'm not looking to sell it but what do you suppose it's worth? Thanks again.

I enhanced your barrel pic a bit and it looks to be a rather messy 3 Iron 'Oxford' or Damas Crolle' pattern

The name Wyman dose not appear in the records of tradesmen working in the London, Birmingham or U.K.gun trade pre; 1900.
I would agree the gun is of mid range quality, much better than the vast majority of those distributed by H.D.Folsom,of N.Y. It is however typical of guns made for the trade,for example by the, Midland Gun Company, Birmingham.
As anticipated by Toby Barkley, the proof marks are Birmingham black powder, in use from 1875-1887. The right barrel was bored 13G,true cylinder and the left barrel bored 12G but choked to 13G at the muzzle. This results in a choke of .019. [1/2 choke in British terminology].
Will make a nice collectors gun or following a satisfactory inspection by a qualified source a good black powder hunting gun.

I'm confused about what you said about the bores. If the left barrel is 12G and then chokes down to 13G, does that mean the right barrel at 13G is tighter all the way down? A choke of .019 would be what; modified? Wyman not being in the records in the U.K. lends credence to the hardware store theory.

Troublsom 1, check my previous post for R. Grove hammer gun. It is just couple of pages back. That may answer some of your questions. Your gun looks very similar to mine and may have been made by the same manufacturer. Mine seems to be made by Midland. I would like to know if there is a serial number stamped into the steel and also a number stamped into the foerend wood under the left tube. Do the inside of your locks look like the ones in my post?