doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Crown Steel Tubes

Circa 1900, several U.S. of A. makers offered double barreled guns with "Crown Steel". From some of the pre-1900 Sears & Roebuck catalogues and other ads, the 1st offerings may have been as early as 1894/1895. Whiteley Steel Company of Muncie, Indiana was incorported on December 20th, 1897 and they used the traded name "Crown Steel" on tool steel and possibly steel for auto, which was a mixture of imported ingots or imported ingots. But I think they were a little late to the party. Another option is the Crown and Cumberland Steel Company of Maryland. Does anyone have any info on the "Crown Steel" tubes. Interesting how other steel offerings were blue steel, Rolled Steel(Winchester), Crown Steel, Ordnance Steel, Krupp steel, Whitworth Steel, etc. with the component percentages being a secret.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hunter Arms used "Crown Steel" from Sanderson Bros. Steel, Syracuse on No. 2 grade guns starting in 1895, then from Crucible Steel on Trap Grade guns after 1913

On Lefever guns the SB&Co (Sanderson Steel) a Sheffield, England, company, stamp many times also had a diamond or rhombus shaped stamped near the SB&Co stamp. This may not have been a Sanderson trade mark as it has also been found on barrels marked LLH. SB&Co appears in the Syracuse city directories of the 1880's.

In the 1880's English exports in the gun trade to the USA started a steady decline. SB&Co had the foresight to set up a plant here. This allowed them to avoid the disastrous fate that would hit other British firms with the McKinley tariff of 1890.

Here is a history of the company.
http://www.sandersonsteel.com/200_years.htm

I do not know any Lefever guns with "Crown Steel" on the barrels, but there is always the exception when it comes to Lefevers.

Pete

Sanderson Steel was started in England in 1776. Sanderson Bros. Steel Co. started their 'Syracuse Works' in 1886, and supplied Nitro and Crown fluid steel barrels to Hunter Arms starting in 1895, Armor in 1898, and Royal in 1901. Halcomb Steel Co. opened in 1905, and L.C. Smith was on the Board of Directors. Halcomb supplied London steel for 0 grades and Royal steel for the hammer guns starting in 1907. Crucible Steel Co. bought Sanderson Bros in 1900, and Halcomb in 1911. Parker Peerless steel may have come from Crucible also.

Bro. Walt set us right regarding SB&Co about a year ago. These are 1906 12g 00 'Armour' steel barrels with the 'C' for Crucible Steel.
S. Buckley & Co appears in the Syracuse city directories in the 1880s, and their mark has been found on Ithaca barrels also. No idea as yet what the ? 'P' is.

Thanks fellas. I believe Ithaca tubes had such a stamp.(looks like Drew answer a few seconds earlier)

1892 - "Sanderson Brothers Steel Company, Syracuse, Onondaga, Established in 1876; 11 heating furnaces, 3 forge fires, 2 annealing furnaces, 2 steel cementing furnaces, 10 hammers, 3 trains of rolls, (9,10, and 12-inch,) and one 30-pot and for 12-pot crucible steel-melting furnaces; product, hammered and rolled crucible steel of every description, shear steel, and blister steel; specialty, the finest quality of tool steel; annual capacity, 5,000 net tons. Brand, “Sanderson Bros. & Co.” C.H. Halcomb, President and Treasurer; W.F. Belknap, Secretary." Notice who the Secretary is/was????

Somne time prior to 1908, Sanderson Brothers Steel Company had been absorbed by the Crucible Steel Company of America, Pittsburg. Many of the names/stamps are really for a type of steel/brand with a certain percentage of elements at a specific point in time.

I'd guess the "P" to be for Pittsburg as Sanderson Brothers(Syrause) may have had a patented process that Crucible used in its Pittsburg facility.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

P as in Pittsburgh PA.?? (The very old spelling of P-burgh was without the letter H). I am a bit confused guys. Pete and others talks of Sanderson Brothers Steel Co. as SB&Co. Revdocdrew and Harry Howland mention SB&Co. as S. Buckley and Co. I am thinking these are two different companies. If so their marks should be different?? What am I missing?

Raimey: Where did you find "Sanderson Bros. & Co."?

Here's a 1910 F grade hammer gun with ROYAL STEEL stamped over S.B. & Co C

Raimey:

Interesting. I grew up in Cumberland, and still pass the Steel Company a few times a week. Were tubes actually made in Cumberland? Any more info on steel from Cumberland used in gun making? Thanks.

Syracuse City Directories....

1879-1880


1884-1885


1885-1886


1889-1890


No mention of a S. Buckley & Co. as an incorporated company, a steel company, etc. There are some Buckley's in Syracuse, most listed as laborers, widows, saloon keepers, etc.

Pete

Drew:

I've found them listed in the "Directory to Iron & Steel Works in the United States:Embracing..." by the American Iron & Steel Association from the 1880s thru to the early 1900s:

1884 listing - http://books.google.com/books?id=V141AAA...yracuse&lr= . They had the brand/tradename "Sanderson Bros. & Co." and it is a stretch, but the stamp could have easily been truncated to "SB&Co.".

Some 1907 info on the metal guys at Sanderson Brothers & Company/Crucible Steel Company of America: http://books.google.com/books?id=xVUYAAA...yracuse&lr= .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Norm:

I don't know the answer yet, but I'll look. I was chasing brand/tradenames when I found the Cumberland Steel Company. The Crucible Steel Company of America( http://www.crumetals.com/steelworkers.cfm ) is really the key as of July 1900 it was incorporated and looks to have the following under its unbrella:
http://books.google.com/books?id=k_kMAAA...yracuse&lr= .

In 1888, the company was listed in Pittsburgh with the works in Cumberland, Alleghany county, Maryland - http://books.google.com/books?id=wi0qAAA...lt&resnum=1 . They made tools steel and under the Crucible Steel Company of America there is a slight possiblity they made tube steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I can't find S. Buckley & Co. in ANY US city or business directory so believe Pete and Raimey are correct.
If SB&Co P is for Pittsburgh is SB&Co C for Cumberland or Crucible? Thanks all.

For now I don't think "Crucible" would be stamped after a tradename/type steel; therefore, "C" would be for Cumberland and Cumberland of Maryland. But it is odd that one might be for a city while the other is a city/conglomerate/company(it might be the company was named after the city within which it operated?). But I do think that SB&Co. was a brand/tradename/type/variety of steel. It might be in the U.S. patent data.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am searching for an early M-37 barrel blue print. It was made by, I believe, one of the Pittsburgh boiler tube makers. If my memory is correct, they also made barrels for the .45 war time production. I started to "organize" my files and now can't find anything. And how to explain Harry's report on the composition of barrels made bu S. Buckley? This was info in a court case so I should think HArry would be careful to get the name right. But we are all human so a mistake could be made I suppose.
Hope to be back later when I find the print.

My Ithaca # 6 Crass made in 1903 has "Crown Steel" barrels.

I did finally find the drawing. It is from Flannery Bolt Co., Bridgeville, PA. To sum the title block, it appears to be a drawing for a 12 gauge Ithaca gun barrel, 1940. No mention for what model. There is a barrel forging drawing number referenced. I do know Flannery made barrels for the .45 production and these are marked with a F. This excursion sheds no light on the questions at hand, sorry for the red herring.

Walt,

What year(s) are we looking at? Sometime between 1886-1920? I think I know the confusion, but need the year to confirm what was going on.

Pete

Pete, I am in the midst of some exterior painting but will look it up this pm. Harry's note pertains to law suit about a 10 ga. blowing up and injuring the shooter. I have much if not all of the file so a date will be easy to establish. It will be in the early 1930s though.
Later.

J.G. Riga was an importer of barrels from Belgium. His 1st customer was Forehand & Wadsworth. He also supplied barrels for Colt, Bacon Arms and C.S. Shattuck. He would purchase barrels from many small makers and ship them via Antwerp.

I believe S. Buckley & Co was an import house in New York that would receive the barrels for him, BUT I need a date to confirm Buckley's role.

Pete

Too hot to paint, besides, gun research is a lot more fun. Found the file. The gun in question was finished during July 1929. It was a Grade 2 Super 10. The suit didn't start until 1944. Here is part of Harry's deposition when asked how the company made the gun in question. "...we purchase our barrels forged and rough drilled from the Flannery Belt[Bolt] Co., Bridgeville, Pa. " I hadn't read this document before. He goes on the tell all other forgings are bought from Clapp Mfg., Auburn, NY. (Clapp was still in business a few years ago as I called them to talk with anyone who remembered Ithaca.), the brazing and soldering of "lugs and Loops, ribs, etc. A lot of discussion about proofing, etc. Most interesting and I shall be engrossed a while...
The company was not allowed to examine the gun or the shell used at the time of the accident. Harry's reference to Flannery creats a puzzle as to how S. Buckley came into the deal??? Is Harry talking 1944 although the gun was made in 1929? I know Ithaca carried a lot of unfinished inventory as I have a photo of the barrel storage and there were a lot of tubes there. Harry was asked about "That" gun so I should think he is referring to 1929 manufacture?
Later.

Ok! Upon further reading, Harry corrects his Flannery answer to be "We were getting all our barrels forged, rough drilled and rough turned from Belgium. We were purchasing them from either Samual Buckley & Co. or from J. D. Riga & Co. and it was not until two or three years later that we began purchasing those barrels from the Flannery Bolt Co."
Pete, you nailed it! Great work!
So.. Can we say that Ithaca barrels marked SB&Co. from this era were commodity Belgium barrels imported by Buckley and so stamped? And nothing to do with Sanderson Bros.?

Lovely bird-dogging on all fronts. But are there any other import houses that have their initials stamped on the Belgian tubes near the lower rib? Does there exist a set of tubes stamped "Crown Steel" atop with "SB&Co" on each tube near the lower rib? Was "Crown Steel" an American brand/trademark or was it Belgian?

Stallones: are there any stamps on the tubes near the lower rib ahead of the barrel flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ithaca marked the SC in the barrel steel column for crown steel implying it was a 'special steel'? Stallones, PM me your sn and I will check it out.

It appears that there may exist at least 3 possiblities on a longarm with the "SB&Co" stamp:

1. Ithaca, Hunter Arms & Lefever all sourced their tubes from Belgium thru Samuel Buckley & Company.

2. Hunter Arms & Lefever sourced from Sanderson while Ithaca sourced from Belgium.

3. The stamp "SB&Co" is time dependent and after the McKinley Act and prior to WWI Ithaca, Hunter Arms & Lefever sourced their tubes from Sanderson Brothers, a facility under the Crucible Steel Company of America.

I believe almost all fluid steel tubes were crucible.
Walt can you interpret the elements noted with the percentages from the legal pad?

Phosphorus
Sulfur
Silicon
Chromium

Vandium?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Walt,

A lot of good questions, but few real answers. I do know that a Riga was importing barrels from 1886 on. They were descendents of a Belgian barrel maker, G.J. Riga, and had come here for the 1876 Philadelphia Exposition. The son, J.G. Riga stayed on and became an importer. His son, J.C. Riga continued in his father's business. I have part 1 of a 2 part 1940 interview with him that was published. Been looking for part 2 for some years now.


Here is a site, in French that documents a small part of the import business.
http://heuse.spahistoire.info/chinhotcanondamas.html

I believe S.B.&Co to be Sanderson Steel as I stated above. Crown Steel does not match any Belgian trade name. A caveat, I have only recorded 1,200 Belgian trade marks / names so far. I have at least another 1,000 to compile, just never find the time or motivation to complete the task.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

I would guess Crown Steel is a more a marketing name than a direct trade name. But I am guessing. Any original source material showing otherwise would be appreciated. Did the Riga's stop importing and become brokers of domestic barrels over the years? I don't know.

Pete

I agree with Peter and for now still hold that "SB&Co" is a variety of alloy/steel with certain element percentages that were a closely guarded secret by either the Sanderson Brothers or the Crucible Steel Company of America.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Here is a printed analysis. I think the numbers are in percentages. Also, in the same file is a 1919 letter from the then plant manager, A. P. Curtis requesting an analysis of a Belgium gun barrel AND, coincidently, the analysis is identical. I trust the Belgium makers had perfect batch control?? or Ithaca used these data for the court case?? Oh no, it must be just a coincidence---
Pete, Not sure I am ready to totally agree on the mark. We don't know if or how these barrels were marked but the absence of Sanderson in all this Ithaca record causes me pause at your conclusion. Hopefully, something definitive will come to the front.

Walt,

I would love to be proved wrong in my assumptions. Thanks for sharing the correspondence.

Pete

I still think the issue is time dependent as Samuel Buckley, Manhattan didn't incorporate until July 1921: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B05EFDB1731EF33A25753C2A9619C946095D6CF , that is if I have the correct Samuel Buckley(lower left portion of the article).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears that the rare earth metals peddler Samuel Buckley & Company, London & NY(100 William Street, NY) and the Belgian tube importer Samuel Buckley & Company were two different, independent firms. Rare earth metal Samuel Buckley & Company(Printer?) is most of the time noted as "Successors of Samuel Buckley" with Wilfred Buckley(occasionally Wilfred L. Wood) d.b.a. or trading as "Samuel Buckley & Company". It had a strong emphasis in silver was was an agent for J. Starkie Gardner in the U.S. of A. Circa 1901 there was a tit for tat suit between Ernest O. Jacobsen and Wilfred Buckley trading as Samuel Buckley, http://books.google.com/books?id=cm8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA842&dq=samuel+buckley+and+company&lr= , which was heard by the NY Supreme Court, but for now I don't know the specifics. Also about the same time rare earth metal peddler Samuel Buckley & Company tried to dance with the NY Appraiser and either A.G. Spalding & Brothers was involved or in a similar sinking ship. Or A.G. Spalding and Wilfred Buckley trading as Samuel Buckley of London & NY were on opposite ends of the judicial stick.

1899 Advert. of Samuel Buckley & Company peddling Henley golf balls:
http://books.google.com/books?id=W57GAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR26&dq=samuel+buckley+and+company .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks like J.G. Riga tried to also dance with the port appraiser:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Xs4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA783&dq=U.S.+vs.+riga+on+barrels&lr= .

And there was some exception to the law/rule for scattergun tubes in the 1890 tariffs(See "Court & Treasury Decisions" on the lower portion of the page):
http://books.google.com/books?id=M1UrAAA...barrels&lr=

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Who is Drew Hause???? I thought your alias was revdocdrew? Anyway are you firm on the 1906 date for the tubes? I was wondering if they were about 5 to 6 years later? Circa WWI, or prior to as per this Chrome-Nickel auto of 1912, http://books.google.com/books?id=P_waAAA...l+steel&lr= , The Crucible Steel Company of America was making chrome-nickel(chromium & nickel) steel. So that big "C" just might be for chrome-nickel steel if the dates match. Chrome-nickel steel patent, reissue of the 1930s:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=fAdAAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's Riga in his own words to the ways and means committee on tarrifs in 1913:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BCIuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5979&dq=A.H.+Fox+gun+barrels&lr= .

By the way, was A.H. Fox making rifle barrels for Germany, ordering barrels from Germany for a Mauser?(It was for Serbia, retracted and then for the Russian and I finally found it here from 1921: http://books.google.com/books?id=O_4sAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA415&dq=mauser+rifle+and+a.h.+fox , and I think a similar quote is contained in one of McIntosh's books). I've seen info that suggest that they ordered say 1/2 million at one time. Was this the German connection for the Krupp tubes?

This isn't the ref. I say but is along the same lines in 1918:
http://books.google.com/books?id=seIRAAA...n+rifle+barrels

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Who is Drew Hause???? I thought your alias was revdocdrew?
Figured if I started using my real name everyone would forget all the dumb things that revdoc fella said



Anyway are you firm on the 1906 date for the tubes?
Yes, the serial number puts the DOM at 1906.

Raimey,
Thank you for posting these links. I find them very interesting!

Mr. Snyder:

You are most welcome and this is a venue where I can sort of keep tract of what I've found. I hope we find some info or draw some conclusion on the types of tube steel. I really didn't intend to get side tracked on American steel but Krupp Nickel led me to either Sanderson or Crucible Steel Company of America and here we are. A neat diversion.

"Brand for tool steel, “Crown.”(Formerly operated by the Crown and Cumberland Steel Company)." - http://books.google.com/books?id=fS4qAAA...aryland&lr= . For now I thik this to be the source of our evasive "Crown" tube steel.

The Crown and Cumberland Steel Works, near the main line of the Baltimore and Ohio Railway, were built by local capitalists in 1872. The manufacture of tools and spring steel of superior quality is an extensive part of this business. The iron is procured in bar form and melted. Rollers of various sizes and an enormous steel hammer, with a striking force of five tons, are included in the equipment of the works. The peculiar qualities already noted of the Cumberland coal render it of especial value in the making of steel. About seventy men are employed by this company. The capacity of the works is ten tons of steel daily. - I can source it if need be.

And of course Crown & Cumberland, along with Sanderson, was folded under the Crucible Steel Works umbrella circa July 1901:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wS45AAA...America&lr= .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thank you so much for the link to Munitions Manufacture in the Philadelphia Ordnance District. Great reference for the editor of the A. H. Fox Collectors Association newsletter!

Dave

With pleasure Dave and that's yet another publication, along with Parker & L.C. Smith publications, to which I need to subscribe.


J.C. Fischer of Schaffhausen, Switzerland, looks to have been the 1st to acknowledge/discover the nickel alloy. He noticed Turkish damascened swords in a museum in Vienna(quote - "In 1824 the Swiss metallurgist JC Fischer, who was visiting his son in Vienna,
saw an exhibition of meteorites at the Imperial Museum of Natural History" ) and figured that a nickel steel was the key. He had nickel steel ingots at the 1851 Exhibit.

“Fischer made his steel nickel alloy, or meteor steel, by melting a mixture of 12 kilograms of cast steel, 248 grams of ‘meteor powder’(four parts of nickel and one part of silver) and 186 grains of kaolin. The alloy was polished with a mixture consisting of 20 parts of vinegar and one part of nitric acid. Domenico Donazzi wrote in 1841: “The subsequent addition of a one-hundredth part of nickel produces a fairly hard product which has very fine luster. With the help of acids a damascened effect can be secured. Such a steel has been marketed by Fischer(J.C.) of Schaffhausen under the name of “meteor steel”. The iron united with the nickel to produce a pure alloy which does not rust when exposed to the air’(Guida for gli Orrefici, Argentieri, Chincaglieri ed altri Aftefici di Metallurgia per prepare la Leghe Metalliche da usare nei diversi Lavori…(Bologna, 1841).”

John Cockerill was attempting to make steel at this same time circa 1830. J.C. Fischer and John Sanderson, of England, look to have been friends. Fischer holds patents in Lower Austria and may have assisted the jump start of Bochumer Verein .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Snyder: this might be old hat to you.

Tarrif Hearings –1893 - http://books.google.com/books?id=D9cuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA424&dq=ithaca+gun+imported+steel&lr=


“Ithaca Gun Company,
Ithaca, N.Y., September 14, 1893.

Sir: We desire to call your attention to a comparatively new industry in this country, that of the manufacture of sporting shotguns.
This industry is peculiar in that so large a part of the cost of the article is represented by labor, about 60 per cent being for labor per-formed in the factory and about 25 per cent for labor upon material and supplies made in our own country and used in the industry. (Gun barrels in the rough, not being made in this country, are imported duty free.)
A number of large factories are already running in this country, two more just starting, all of whom are obliged to employ the best skilled labor at great expense. These industries would be destroyed if the tariff was reduced, and we pray, therefore, that it may be left as it is, since it is now much less than the difference in the price of labor here and other countries from which sporting guns are imported.

Yours, truly,
Ithaca Gun Company”



February 12th, 1914 – I’m curious if they are referring to Schoverling, Daly & Gales?
“Statement of Mr. Thomas Hunter, of Fulton, N.Y., Rep-resenting the Hunter Arms Co. and Others.”

“The reason that was gone into so minutely in the old bill was that the foreigner shipped gun barrels into New York, partly finished gun stocks into Boston, and locks into Philadelphia and brought them together and assembled them here and avoided the specific duty. That is why the matter was covered so minutely in the last bill.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAA...barrels&lr=


There must have been a good bit of friction between Daly, and others who imported components, and Ithaca and the gang. Congress was considering lowering the duty to “one-third”.

“For the past year the foreign competition has been greater, as they have taken stocks from the barrels, which ca be done as easily as a man can take off his coat, and by packing the barrels in one box and guns in the other have passed them as parts, thus avoiding the specific duty.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=ulArAAA...barrels&lr=

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Having fun with the newly scanned books! Good for you.

This confirms other things I have read. The Belgians, being slick business men, managed to get a reduced tariff on their tubes. This is one of the factors that helped them sell so cheaply here.

Riga's logic is circular and does not directly address the reason for the tariff's at all. ( In fact, if you read McKinley's original speech in Congress, he was arguing to place a tariff on imported food items in order to help the American farmer. Which no tariff ever accomplished. ) But, it got him in front of Congress. I am sure that much more went on outside of the hearings. In retrospect, it all came to nought. Within 2 years of this hearing Wilson came into office and destroyed the tariff's within his first few months. Belgium was invaded and all commerical production of sporting firearms ceased until 1918.

Pete

Peter:

Fun I am having. I wish the government/current admin. would keep their nose of of Google Book's deal with authors/publishers.

Let me muddy the water a bit with the brand name: "S.B.& Co." - Summers Iron Works - Summers Brothers & Company - Struthers, Mahoning County, Ohio - http://books.google.com/books?id=azUKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=s.b.%26+company+steel&lr= . I've got to research it a bit to see where it went.

Summers Brothers & Company was acquired in 1895 by Struthers Iron & Steel Company in Ohio. They made sheet steel and short bars. In 1900 they were absorbed under the umbrella of American Sheet Steel Company of New Jersey:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pmQ5AAA...company&lr= .


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

But of course: http://books.google.com/books?id=OaFKAAA...ca+steel+brands (it should be at the top of several of the pages) .

Ludlum Spring and Steel Company of Pompoton, N.J. began in 1854 and were excellent quality control folks bordering on the edge of insane. In 1906 they began construction on a facility in Watervliet, N.Y. with an electric furnance much like Roechling. Plumbago crucibles were used as well as short bars of either Swedish, Wallon or Styrian charcoal iron. The end product may have actually been better than Roechling and was quite cheap for the end product. At one time industrial spies were sent to work at Ludlum Spring and Steel Company(inc. in 1898 I think) and after a couple of weeks they returned to their master with a report. Ludlum Spring and Steel had the same mixture as their competitor but after 4 hours of heating they were Johnny on the spot with their very specific time table of activity.

As a sidenote, Bethlehem Steel Company made tubes for Winchester and possibly Remington:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g28AAAA...barrels&lr=

A 2001 text with the title of "Home Of Morgan" by Chernow notes that German investors were trying to acquire Bethlehem Steel I think during WWI.

Circa 1900, other barrel, could have been big guns, makers were:
Carpenter Steel Company
Midvale Steel Company
Sanderson Brothers Steel Company
Spauldings & Jennings
http://books.google.com/books?id=wNmgAAA...l+steel&lr=




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is an article on Tariff Review or the effects of the McKinley Tariff that show just how many guns were being imported from 1886 to 1896(note the big drop in 1892): http://books.google.com/books?id=WOouAAA...ted+gun+barrels .

I think the main rift between gun dealers in NY was of the between Schoverling, Daly & Gales, who were making a mint, and the rest of the gun making community. Circa 1893 there are accounts of one steamship carrying a lot of 1000 gun barrels and another lot of 1000 gunstocks. The ommission of the term "gun parts" in the original tariff led to the Supreme Court upholding a lower courts decision that the tariff didn't apply. Nelson Dingy or the Dingy Tariff played some part and for now I don't know what.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Baldwin Brothers and Company, 1876 NY list - http://books.google.com/books?id=6CcoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA229&dq=Baldwin+Bros.+%26+Co.+N.Y+importer ,
of 72 Broadway, N.Y., was the importer of/for Whitworth gun tubes. Anyone have any examples or info noting Baldwin Brothers & Company on the Whitworth tubes?

In 1883, rough bored tubes were first addressed/considered. The of course in 1890 and also 1894 the term "barrels" was contained in the law/tariff. But in 1897, and more than likely the Dingy tariff bill, the wording is "shotgun barrels, in single tubes, forged, rough bored" - free - http://books.google.com/books?id=2pEaAAA...barrels&lr= , while double barrels were $3 plus 35%. Also note that combination barrels were a separate category. The term "forged" is where the U.S. goverment took Baldwin Brothers & Company to task asking if Whitworth tubes were "forged" or not.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Is there any evidence to indicate whether or not these marketing names had any bearing on the quality or strength of the steels used?

I think there was a different composition associated with each brand name and most writers of the time answered the tube steel questions thusly(beginning bottom left): http://books.google.com/books?id=GkQQAAA...l,+rolled+steel

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looking through my bone pile today and picked up a set of later NID barrels that were never struck after assembly. Clearly marked "SB & Co T" My photo set up is dpwn but I can post a photo tomorrow if you would care to see it.

Walt,

That would be great if you did.

Pete

Here are the marks as best as I could get them. Interesting-the barrels are chambered and finished bored AND proofed before the excess solder was struck off.

Walt,

Thanks a bunch. It adds information that has to be reconciled. Is that a U to the right?

Pete

The mark looks like an eagle w/ "VT" over a crucible. Interesting, very interesting and for now the best guess for "T" is for tool steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pete, its kind of a chunky C and the mark of Joe Scaglione who proofed the barrels. What's is a mystery to me is there is no serial number as the barrels were never fitted. All guns in the proof books were recorded by serial number.

Sporting Life Feb. 26, 1898
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_23/SL3023023.pdf
The Hunter Arms Company, of Fulton, N. Y., makers of the L. C. Smith gun, have made a somewhat radical change in their guns recently.
The following was received, which is being sent out to the trade:
Fulton, N. Y., Feb. 10. Our motto, "We lead, others follow," is again to be brought prominently before the public. After seriously considering the demands of the shooters we have concluded to make the following changes in the L.C. Smith guns for 1898.
Our famous Crown Steel barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description. Our policy is always to improve our product when ever and wherever we can, hence instead of reducing our price on the No. 2 gun we have greatly improved its quality, and offer our patrons a vastly superior gun at former price. In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade. This statement expresses fully the status of our nitro steel, and in offering these new barrels you may rest assured we do so only after being fully convinced as to their superior quality.
Both Crown and Nitro steel barrels will have our trade mark stamped on them. In this mark you have our guarantee that they are genuine, and just what we represent them to be.
Hoping that we may have the pleasure of your favors with orders for samples of these new guns and assuring same our best attentions always, we remain, yours very truly,
HUNTER ARMS CO.

Apparently circa 1904 there were American import houses as well as barrel agents for sourcing Belgian tubes: http://books.google.com/books?id=3W1JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=belgian+gun+barrels&lr= .

"The barrel is not paid for, however, until it has passed the usual test at the Goverment proving ground and bears the stamp of perfection." Under Manufactories and House Workers at line 13: http://books.google.com/books?id=yt3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA328&dq=belgian+gun+barrels&lr= .

Can anyone say if the American import houses required the "Government Test" or not?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

The question is would Belgium allow export of barrels without proofing? Go here and scroll done to mark #36 http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html You will see that in 1924 the rule was established to allow export of unproved barrels to a foreign proof house. Previous to this, no mark was required. So in effect unproofed barrels could be exported. What other countries allowed or required, I could not say. Add in the fact that the Belgians had heavily lobbied Congress to lower the tariff on "barrels in the rough" and we have very low cost barrels available.

Would an American importer request to have barrels proofed, thus adding to their cost?

Walt,

You are very kind. Thanks.

Pete

PeteM:

Thanks for properly rephrasing my question. I know tube makers were a proud lot, but was it assumed that since a similar tube produced at a similar time passed proof that all the non-proofed tubes possibly could pass proof also? Then again the end user probably just wanted a tool. Do you think that if the end user had been made aware of the aspect of proofing and that the tube maker was actually the one who applied the type of steel stamp, that they might have purchased a higher grade? Or I guess it was just simple economics.

But it was definitely all about the Benjamins when it comes to the Export/Import Commission Houses and Agents. I've searched and searched for a list of import houses as I think info may be found surrounding the Export/Import Commission Houses of New York. Some sources give around 400 houses in New York circa 1900 and others give 600 as per a reference below. From what I understand about it there were 2 options for importing a product: Export/Import Commission House and Agent. The latter was sort of a cash & delayed carry with the imported products pre-paid. I think the Export/Import Commission House has a physical location in the country of origin of the product. Here's some info on Export/Import Commission Houses:

”We have spoken from the American point of view and have generally referred to New York City as the type of a market center; but it should not be supposed that export commission houses are not found in other countries. In fact, London is the real home of the world’s commission houses. Here are found five times as many as in New York City. All the bit continental market cities, such as Hamburg, Rotterdam, Antwerp, are each as well supplied as is New York City, which has about six hundred export commission houses.

There is little in the ‘modus operandi’ of the export commission house that is difficult to understand. They do business only with foreign houses whom they know, and, as a rule, ship goods subject to draft attached to documents or against confirmed credits. In some cases where the export house is also an import house, the exchange of commodities permits the commission firm to arrange the financial settlement in a different manner.

The advantages and disadvantages, both to the buyer and seller, offered by this method of distributing goods may be briefly stated. The advantages to the foreign customer in dealing through a commission house may be summed up as follows: (1) He can forward all orders under one cover instead of dealing with a large number of separate manufacturing concerns; (2) he receives his shipments on one bill of lading; (3) his payments are to one person and not to many; (4) a foreign firm may get longer credit extensions from a commission house, that is, the exporter being acquainted with the trade and having a wider connection among foreign banks, would not hesitate to grant longer term drafts….” from http://books.google.com/books?id=cHwpAAA...ew+york&lr=

Possibly an Export/Import Commission list may be found in the "Exporters’ Encyclopaedia" and this 1921 version is one of the few that I've found that can be viewed: http://books.google.com/books?id=NKFrBJ1...s+encyclopaedia I haven't taken the time to download it but it may have some interesting info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm going to attempt to expand this thread yet again instead of starting a new thread. Does anyone know if Parker's Vulcan Steel tubes were made at Vulcan Iron Works, Bradford, England operated by the Thwaites Brothers??

And on another note did Providence Tool Company of Rhode Island make tubes for Winchester or did Winchester source Providence Tool for tubes?


Last, who might have sourced the American Gun Barrel Company for tubes: http://books.google.com/books?id=yQsWAAA...ew+haven,+conn. (see Captain William Henry Avis) ??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is a picture of the "Crown Steel " Barrels on my 1903 Vintage Ithaca Crass # 6

Thanks for the pic. So was it applied after the top rib was in place?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The way it looks, it was engraved after the rib was on.

Circa 1902, American makers of bar steel for tubes used the following marks:

Sanderson Brothers - SB
Midvale - L1
Midvale for military(1899-1900) - H
Carpenter - C
http://www.scripophily.net/castconewje1.html

Winchester purchased their Nickel steel(blanks???) from Bethlehlem Steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From what I've read and gleaned I think this to be correct in describing the manufacture of "rough bored barrels" in Belgium circa 1905:

"In the manufacture of steel barrels Bessemer-Cockerill steel, Siemens-Martin steel of British and Belgian manufacture, and German steel are used. The bars after begin forged pass through a series of mechanical operations which they undergo in the following order: ---Drilling of the hole; re-boring or enlarging of the hole; exterior turning; verifying of thickness and of the bore and modification to required measurements and; exterior planning and shaping – especially for hexagonal and octagonal barrels---; polishing of the interior of the barrel with a special too, and exterior polishing and shaping.

Another mode of manufacturing steel barrels, which is, however, very little practiced, is that of taking bars of soft steel of 45 millimetres in diameter and 30 centimetres in length, which are bored and then rolled out on a mandrel until the required length is attained.

It is difficult to obtain trustworthy information respecting the boring of steel barrels by machinery, the greatest secrecy being observed by the manufactures…..”

The 2nd method as ChuckH noted in another thread, is centered around the “gun moulds” as found in the tariff lists as the end product surely meets the "forged" definition.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ErkOAQA...ers&f=false

The stock steel left the steel manufacturing facility in bar form and then experienced a set of rollers the formed the bar to a desired form closer to what a tube would be. It was annealed and/or oil quenched or tempered. I think too that the chamber end was oil tempered a bit more.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone know what percentage the Hunter Arms Company owned of the Crucible Steel Company of New York, or if in fact that Hunter Arms Company actually owned any stake in the Crucible Steel Company? Drew do you have any info on your site?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

According to Houchins, C.H. Halcomb resigned as president of Sanderson Bros. in 1902, then opened Halcomb Steel Co. in Syracuse in 1905. L.C. Smith was Chairman of the Board of Directors and apparently active in the management of the business. Halcomb supplied London steel for 0 grades and Royal steel for the hammer guns starting in 1907. Crucible Steel bought Halcomb in 1911.
There is no mention of involvement by the Hunter Bros.

I've read it a couple times now in Hunter Arms reprints and the info suggests that Hunter Arms owned an interest in Crucible Steel Company: "Up until 1913 the grading of Smith guns starting from the finest was the A-3, A-2, Monogarm, 5, 4, Pigeon, 3,2,1,0,00, and the Hammer Model. The A-3, A-2, and Monogram had Whitworth steel barrels. The Damascus barrels were still popular and could be ordered on Monogram and lower grades. The 5 down to and including the 3 grade had nitro steel barrels and on the 2 grade crown steel was used. All lower grades had Damascus barrels. Krupp steel barrels were furnished on featherweight guns of A-3, A-2 and Monograms. An interesting piece of history has just been found. It seems that Hunters Arms Co. owned a part of the Crucible Steel Co. of Syracuse, New York and most of the steel for their barrels came from there."

I haven't found what "An interesting piece of history" might be.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Where did you find that Raimey? And didn't most of the steel for the barrels come from Belgium?!? The steel for the receiver and internals was domestic.

"A-3, A-2, Monogarm, 5, 4, Pigeon"

That explains the legendary 'Whitwroth Pluid' barrels on this Monogarm

Of course most of the steel tubes in the rough came from Belgium as from where else could a price-point source, which utilizes craftsmen which span the spectrum of experience, as well as quantity be found. But considering L.C. Smith, and L.C. Smith & Bros. Typewriters and the Syracuse industrial area, sourcing could have been as easy as next door especially if you owned a stake in the steel source. An interesting 1914 read of the steel industry in Syracuse(note L.C. Smith & Bros. typewriter bldg on page 47): http://books.google.com/books?id=kloEAAA...use&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For those of you who like a little story with the info I was looking to see how the Hunter Arms Company powered their facility and how the water to work the water wheel arrived there. I had previously read that near the end of the Hunter Arms Company project some of the heavy equipment fell off into the raceway and I was trying to find additional info on the raceway as well as the location of the Hunter Arms Company in Fulton, NY. This lead to the causes of the fall of the Hunter Arms Company of which there were several and using Marlin’s Duolite process to reduce the time of the barrel finishing process from 4 days in a baking soda solution to 4 hours by the Duolite method, but it had a fetish for solder. Some give that 5000 tube sets were finished with Duolite and this barrel finish aspect may be how I was diverted to this tangent/rabbit on the Hunter Arms Company. The I went back to how Lyman Cornelius Smith acquired the assets of W.H. Baker & Sons Company and how L.C. Smith then decided to go with the talented designer Alexander T. Brown for their hammerless. Tom Hunter, etal., got wind of the Smith venture by Harry Comstock, bait/bait bucket fella, who was a Remington salesman. The father of the Hunter boys, John Hunter, Sr. wanted his boys to be in a joint venture so in 1888 the Hunter Arms Company was formed in 1888 and shortly thereafter the Hunter Arms Company acquired L.C. Smith with the stipulation that “L.C. Smith” would be on every double and L.C. Smith went on to typewriters(upper and lower case idea), which along with the Dunlop Tire Company, was the brain-child of Alexander T. Brown of Syracuse, N.Y.(single trigger patent 289062). Hunter also peddled bicycles and fans. “The Gun Works”, as it was known in Fulton on Route 481, was across the street from Morin Brother’s Hardware, adjacent to Black Clawson and made of bricks stamped “Orvis”, which were manufactured in Fulton by a works on Lake Neatahwanta. It was then that I found the part connecting the Hunter Arms Company and the Syracuse Crucible Steel Company with that being the only shred of info for now. While I was view the many interesting pics in the little book I glassed some of the single trigger examples and say Lard. Rich Boyer spelled it A.E. Liads(Allan Edward Lard of St. Joseph, Missouri) and then I began to wonder about his source material but he did interview many of the craftsmen as well as Verna Hunter Wadsworth, daughter of William Hunter, and she surpassed 100 years.
630,061 – couldn’t find it

636050
http://www.google.com/patents?id=uNB1AAA...p;q&f=false


http://www.google.com/patents?id=gadNAAA...p;q&f=false

1011972

668526
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Tn5BAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#

747191

http://www.google.com/patents?id=OL1UAAA...p;q&f=false

After the Lards/Liads saga it was on to the “Lunch Pail Special” along with employees getting examples at cost. When an order was taken, a serial number was issued and then at the end of the day the last serial number was logged and the next day the number sequence began with an example with yesterday’s last serial number + 1. But the examples the employees ordered weren’t issued a serial number until the end of the day and the employee examples were logged into the ledger, this being the reason for multiple longarms with the same serial number. And of course the “Lunch Pail Specials” were mixed numbers in nature. But at any rate the name of the books is “The Hunter Arms Co. And the L.C. Smith Gun” 2nd edition by Rich Beyer and published by R&S Antiques. I think I picked it up from Gunnerman at one of the Vintager events.

One last item center around the lauding that single trigger Smith guns wouldn’t double is the following tale and I can’t say it the longarm in question was a single trigger or not or why the gun discharged:

“Another interesting story was one of the Hunter brothers just paid a dog trainer a huge amount of money for a Setter he had been training for almost a year and the first day out with the dog, his gun went off and killed the dog. Naturally he swore the trainer to secrecy and to get him another dog.”

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very interesting thread, thanks everyone!Raimey's last post hit on Baker, which has many SB&Co marked tubes. Has any one ever seen the marking on a Syracuse Arms barrel?

Thanks again,
Craig

Craig, I am going on memory and have not checked any of my Baker guns, but I don't think I remember Baker tubes marked SB&Co. Can you give any examples on particular Baker guns with that mark ? Thanks, Daryl

I will have to go dig out the guns and try and take some pics. I also have and extra set of Ithaca Flues barrels Marked SB&Co-G, any one have any ideas on the G.
I will try and get some pics on that also.
Thanks,
Craig

The little bug (SB&Co) shows up all over the place. I have never heard of SB&Co-G until now. Craig, if you can post pictures I know I would find them interesting. At one time, I believed I had this figured out. Now, I am only sure that I don't.... I had thought the rhombus was associated with SB&Co. After all of Raimey's digging and questioning, I no longer believe that. Presently I am leaning towards the idea that the rhombus was an exporter / importer mark. The problem is that the more guns that surface with these marks, the harder it is to put it all together. If, as you say there indeed is an SB&Co-G mark, well.... back to square 1 again.

Pete

Pete, I sent a pic to Raimey, and will send one to you also, along with a pic of a Lefever mark I had not seen before.
Daryl, I was wrong, I was thinking of ADH on the Baker barrels.
As an aside, as I am pulling out guns to photo, my wife wonders by and tells me if you can't remember things you must have too many!Think I will go shooting!
Craig

Havener's Lefever and then Ithaca:


Lefever with what looks to be 4 "C"s in the quadrants of a pair of crossed hammers.


Ithaca and it is a "G" and not a "C".

PeteM:
I think we are making progress and are approaching the bottom followed by an upswing in answers. When we know all the questions, then we can attach the answers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Do we have these "SB&Co.?" marks:

"SB&Co. C"
"SB&Co. G"
"SB&Co. P"
"SB&Co. T"

Have a missed one or added one?

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

In 1894 Sanderson Brothers Steel Company of Syracuse used the brand name "Sanderson Bros. & Co." with C.H. Halcomb as president & treasurer, W.F. Belknap as secretary and selling agents Hawkridge Brothers of Boston as well as D.G. Gautier & Co. of New York.

D.G. Gautier & Company, selling agent of Sanderson Brothers & Co. with some relationship to the Talcony Steel Company(
http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/tacony/tacony_ordnance.html)

http://books.google.com/books?id=TX0DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA116-IA8&lpg=PA116-IA8&dq=d.g.+gautier+%26+co.&source=bl&ots=4WV4Coxx4e&sig=NJJWSmpibDdiPAeK7fZBo9n3jm0&hl=en&ei=jhPCS7SrFsX_lgfMx8GJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=d.g.%20gautier%20%26%20co.&f=false

By the way an Edmund Leavenworth French, born on Ocotber 12th of 1870 in NY City, who attended the Royal School of Mines in Freibert, Saxony of Germany looks to be an intergral part of the Sanderson Brothers & Co., as well as the Crucible Steel Company of America.

So just a wild, wild guess could C, G, & T, as I don't have anything for P(Park Steel Company but connection to S B & Co.?? but were into special steels at the time the Crucible Steel Company absorbed them or Park Brothers with "Black Diamond" trademark? from 1902), be for:
C - Crucible Steel Company
G - Gautier
T - Talcony; with these letters being the facility or company where the steel was sourced? This is all based on the assumption that "S B & Co." would be the brand stamp of Sanderson Brothers & Co.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Enlargement and rotation of the mark on the Lefever tubes:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Drew:
Back to your Belgium source question: are there L.C. Smith examples with "SB&Co. LLH" post the beginning of WWI, when does the examples with "SB&Co.-C,G,P,T," seem to appear and are there any examples stamped "SB&Co.-C,G,P,T" coupled with "LLH"? Would you think that the designation for "SB&Co." could be time dependent and for S. Buckley & Co. until a certain date and then for Sanderson Brothers & Co. thereafter?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Brother: you mostly lost me when you wandered off after this new fangled fluid steel stuff
We've found pre-1913 Smith barrels with SB&Co P and C
We've found post-1913 barrels with the crown over a 'D' mark of Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont of Nessonvaux.
We've found post-1913 with LLH as late as 1940.
No SB&Co with LLH.

Interesting that an example hasn't surfaced with both "SB&Co." and "LLH" stamps.






Samuel Buckley & Co. London Laminated - http://www.smokewagonsupply.com/buckley_double/index.htm



I don't know what the oval/mark is beside the "Crown" over "BP" but one expects to see a "SB&Co." stamp on the examples Samuel Buckley(Wilfred Buckley by this time) & Company peddeled or would the stamp equate more with articles exported from his houses in Liege & London? Any why would there be a "C, G, P, T" after the stamp on an article exported/imported by Samuel Buckley & Co.?

Address for Samuel Buckley & Co. in 1915 - http://books.google.com/books?id=AkEuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA109&dq=samuel+buckley+%26+co.+liege&cd=3#v=onepage&q=samuel%20buckley%20%26%20co.%20liege&f=false

Possibly an interesting association/connection between Samuel Buckley & Co.(Wilfred Buckley probaby was the successor) and Dunlop Tyre(founded by Alexander T. Brown inventor of L.C. Smith scattergun) - http://books.google.com/books?id=sxw7AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA451&dq=samuel+buckley+%26+company+and+dunlop+tire&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well done Raimey. My 00 Smith with Armor steel barrels stamped SB&Co is from 1906, and I couldn't find a New York listing for Buckley at that date.

Thanks Drew but I'm pretty sure Samuel Buckley & Co. were peddling precious metals and art in the early 1900s from 100 Williams Street, NY: http://books.google.com/books?id=-0QAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA130&dq=samuel+buckley+%26+co.&cd=8#v=onepage&q=samuel%20buckley%20%26%20co.&f=false . I wanted to find info on Samuel Buckley & Co. in order to possibly eliminate them as a possiblilty but they are still there.

At the moment I think the leads to be in the direction of Hunter Arms owning a bit of the Crucible Steel Company and the "Crown Steel" trademark stamp with "H.A.??" on the underside possibly giving some revelation. If we could find a document linking Hunter Arms & the Crucible Steel Company, I would say that would give more weight toward Sanderson Brothers & Co. Also are there any L.C. Smiths, or other American makes, with the Crown Steel trademark & "SB&Co." stamp?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse