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Joined: May 2006
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tanky Offline OP
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lagopus, there is nothing stamped on the action flats accept the crossed scepters. What do you think of the clover on the dolls head? Just some decoration or something more.

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Yes it is. I think these locks are the type Joe was thinking about.



I owned a Greener once that had something similar inlayed in gold on the dolls head but I can't remember what it was. It very well could have been a cloverleaf.

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Could be a club gun.As I recall, some Scott guns had a gold inlaid star, these guns were usually engraved,"Bogardus Gun Club." There is no intent to suggest this is a Scott gun! The purpose was simply to point out that some gun clubs of the era added a symbol such as a star to members guns.

Last edited by Roy Hebbes; 06/30/09 01:58 PM.

Roy Hebbes
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The back sprung locks on the Grove defeat the whole purpose of the bar action sidelock....I've never saw a lock on a Scott of that low quality.

The only stars I've saw on Scotts were on Victoria grades and some Exlentia grades.

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Tanky, I can't help there and wonder if it was a later addition. The only Gunmaker who used an ace of clubs as a trade mark was Thomas Wild but he put that inside the heart, diamond and spade. Not all Midland guns were marked Solid Bar, that had that type of action, but it was a sort style they had making out that the gun looked like a full bar action and could be engraved like one but that the action had less cut away so was therefore stronger. The 1937 clatalogue lists the Farmer's Hammer Gun in 10 bore as an option at £9 5 shillings; it was a bar plate back action like yours but by then it had a cross bolt type closure. It could be an early one as it has some similarity and their guns didn't always follow the details printed in the catalogue. I had a 20 bore of theirs which had a top rib extension in the form of an ace of clubs or clover leaf shape. Sadly I no longer have it. It was the Demon model but not as shown in their catalogue.

Can you tell me if it has any other trade marks or initials on the barrels? Lagopus.....

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Don't you think if it made for a "stronger action" the better makers would have been making them like that ?

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The solid body action is stronger because there is no need to cut slots in the bar of the action to clear the main springs as required on bar action side locks. This increase the strength of the action. Charles Lancaster used back action sidelocks on his 12/20 gun. This undoubtedly allowed him to reduce the weight of the gun without compromising the strength of the action.

I have a copy of the Midland Gun company catalogue of circa 1890
This catalogue provides illustrations of their back action lock.
As stated by lapogus, they are exactly the same design as those fitted to the Grove gun.In this catalogue the gun that most closely resembles the Grove gun is their "Demon" Gun which at that time sold for 5 pounds stirling.

Last edited by Roy Hebbes; 06/30/09 11:32 PM.

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The bar action side locked hammer gun is the pinnacle of hammer guns.

Purdey among others built all kinds of back action guns until they figured out the bar action side lock was superior.

Sorry I don't see the argument for strength.....

One function of the Side lock bar action was to protect the stock from main spring breakage....hanging the main springs behind the hammers defeats this feature.

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A quote from the Modern Shotgun,By Sir Gerald Burrard,Vol,1 PAGE 79 "I do not think that any unbiased person could deny that the back action sidelock is the stongest action with the bar action side lock next and the box lock a poor third."


Roy Hebbes
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tanky Offline OP
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Thank you for the interesting info guys! I've learned something about this gun but there are still some questions. Maybe they can't be answered! Lagopus, the photo I posted of the barrel stamps isn't the greatest. There are no other stamps on the barrels. However because of the photo quality you cannot really see the stamp "NO 4" stamped above the "12" on the right tube. Then there is a number 5 on the barrel flats that matches the "5" on the forend iron. I believe this could be a serial number but have not been able to find one at this point on the action. I have only had the locks out of the action for photos and have not taken it apart any further. Are there any records surviving from Midland? The number 25302 is stamped into the forend wood. Maybe this is a Midland serial No and the #5 is the serial No of the gunsmith that finnished it here in the states. I believe that Roy said earlier that this gun is not checkered in the British style. Although quite worn it looks to me that this checkering was pointed up and not of the flat style typical of British checkering. Also does the rib matting seem out of place on a Britsh finnished gun. This matting requires a machine and it looks alot like Parker matting. Another interesting feature on this gun is the tangs are very long. Top tang right to the comb and bottom tang almost to the grip bottom. But it failed to prevent stock breakage thrue the grip. It's been well over 100 years since this gun was made so maybe some one restocked it and did an upgrade.

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