doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The Czar's Parker at Julia's - BS or real?

What do you guys think?

Is there any other documentation supporting this gun's provenance - from the PGCA, from old articles, pics, etc?

I saw the letter they have. Is there anyway to prove that it's authentic?

Guess what rhymes with phoney...

OWD

Read the post on the Parker site.
http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/2830.html

OWD,

Here is a link to the thread on the PGCA site:

http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/2830.html

From what I gleaned on the Parker site, the gun has some history--- that's all. It was never the Czar's Parker, period.

I agree, King.

In an aside, you gotta love needless secrecy which surrounds this gun and the faked Czar gun. I could tell you all about the court case and who was involved, but let's face it - if I know something you don't, that makes me smarter than you!

Is it that upgrade in leather trunk case that graced pages of DGJ few years ago?
I believe like many Russian aristocrats the victim of October Revolution was a Lebeau-Courally man.

I'm waiting for the day, when we read!
"Got my Czar's gun...lots of pictures."

Fake, 100% sure, nice gun but a fake!
bill

What's really funny about the fake Czar gun is that anyone with $175K to spend on a Parker should have taken one look at it and known it is too 'over the top' to have been made by Parker.

I agree with the above that it was never owned by the Czar nor even left the USA. It was ordered by three officers in the Russian army with the intent to present it to the Czar but never happened. DT will be inspecting the gun after the holidays and he will fill us in at that point I'm sure.

Yeah, but is the story and paperwork for real? I think the gun is real - an A1S I think.

What I'm wondering about is that letter.

I wonder if that's real. Is that the only thing there is tying the gun to the Czar?

Even if DT says the gun is all original and OK, what about that letter?

Take that away and the gun's value falls a great deal.

OWD

I agree on the letter - it seems a little oddly worded. It could be real, but I could also believe it's not. I seem to recall the order book might have some further clues that indicate it was for someone in Russia, etc.

The last Julia auction had a Parker with a similar letter. It just had a fake ring to the wording. It sounded like a letter written by someone in modern times, not by someone 80 years ago.

Bill Schodlatz, will you elaborate on your statement that the Julia gun, serial number 168,304 or whatever, is a fake? Is there some evidence that the gun supposedly driven from deep cover, is not really Parker #168,304 as described in the Parker Brothers order and Wilbur Parker letter?

Even if the letter is fake, is there not an article in a Meriden newspaper pumping up the story? Reply to Greg is "Yes, the Parker Brothers order does indicate an order for the Russian Colonel. One Colonel, not three as mentioned by another poster." The order to the Colonel was "tin lined box" and delivery to a loading dock, indicating shipment overseas. The question here is whether Bill Schodlatz is suggesting the gun being sold is not the same gun that is mentioned in the order. It wouldn't be the first time.

I don't have any reason to think the gun itself is a fake. It could be (?) but other than some issues with the stock I have heard of no other evidence.

OK. I just reread the Czar Parker section in TPS.

It sounds like we have a real mystery on our hands.

Who's going to come up to the auction to take a look at the gun?

I'll be there.

OWD

The Czar' gun never been touched by the Czar!
It's not true from the first word to the last one. I don't care who oredered it allmost 100 years ago and it's very strange, but the names of the people (Russian officers) who ordered this gun for the Czar are unknown...
Fake story, not the gun.
I got talk with couple of people here, who could buy it as hystory piece, but they told me 'not interesting'.

I wonder if some student of Russian history can do some research on Colonel Tarnovski and find out what his duties were in this time period and where his postings were during this period?

Colonel Tarnovski?! For God sake, tell me how colonel Tarnovsky (probably the son of Vasily Tarnovsky - well known general-major from Ukraine, died in 1899, his museum is still exist) could get into Tzar sarounding?
Have any idea about royalty manners and HOW simple colonel from nowhere could give the gun to the Czar as gift?
This is the real bull sh*t.

I don't think it would be that hard to give a gift to the Czar, regardless of who you were. I once made a chocolate pistol for President Reagan to thank him for his support of the NRA. I figured he was a busy guy, so I planned to wait until he came to town then I was going to just run up to him and hand it to him. My luck, I overslept that day and missed out.

So what? There is special department today at any presidental group that recieve gifts from any people from any countries, but I'm very doubt, that you could send the gift to UK queen. I guess this gift will be sent back to you. Thou who knows what happens today!
Yesterday it was impossible.

It might have been a great gift for some colonel to give a Czar....I suppose butt-kissing took place back then as well. The whole story has lots of holes in it but without knowing more about the Russian aristocracy of 100 years ago I can't doubt that a colonel would have had access to the Czar. Hell, not too long ago a lowly, slatternly intern had full access to our President.

I guess I ought to clarify Geno's point. Presents from commoners to the Tsar on special occasions were not unheard of, but there was a strict, if unwritten, etiquette as to who can give what. For example, craftsmen could give a sample of their craft, but nothing else, and the production and presenting of the gift would be carried out under supervision of the relevant Ministry or the Governor of the province. Officers in a regiment directly under the Tsar's command could give him a present, but under the assumption that they're congratulating not a Tsar but their beloved commander, and the present would have to be connected with the military service (e.g. a saber). To cut a long story short, I can't think of a context under which such a gift could be given. The whole story would have been much more plausible if the gun was ordered by an American citizen.

P.S. I'm asamed to admit I haven't read the letter mentioned. Being a linguist and ESL teacher by profession, I could probably tell if it was likely to have been written by a Russian. But, unfortunatly, I'm limited in on-line time. So, if anyone here will be so interested in the matter and so very kind to send that letter to my mailbox kafeen@mail.ru as an attached file, I'll be happy to see what I can do

And a few others have had access to that President. I'm surprised the dress hasn't gone to eBay.

So Geno knows who Colonel Tarnovski probably is but now he leaves us hanging. OK, Geno, I just looked at the order and his name is Colonel George V. Tarnovski. Can you give us any further information? Thanks for your interest.

History is very interesting and solving a mystery is exciting! However the price of the gun in this case should stand on its own. Provenence is interesting but at some point it becomes of second importance to a knowledgeable persons appraisal of the gun itself. I can't wait to hear from those who are going to examime it!! David

David, you are so off base, you are not even on our planet. A common A-1 Special 12 gauge in field used, well preserved condition will (maybe) sell for $50,000 to $65,000 if the stars are in the right position and everything is in order. There are A-1s out there right now going unsold at this price range and less. We will wait and see what the Czar's gun sells for or fails to sell for. It won't be anywhere in the distant neighborhood of $50,000. Provenance is the future in bird guns, especially Parkers. OK, so I may be wrong, but, for the present, I will stick with my opinion.

Humpty, the letter is actually one written by Wilbur Parker to the bloke who bought the gun after the Czar's minions welched on their obligation. It's just the type of letter I would want if I were trying to verify the lineage of a gun prior to buying it. It's also just the type of letter I would fake if I were trying to puff up my gun.

That's my biggest problem with the letter - it sounds more like it was written to entice a buyer in 2006 than what would have been written to a buyer in 1915.


But I dunno.

I think it depends on the provenance.

We'll have to see about this one. Because the Czar never ordered this gun, and because this gun never left the US, it will be interesting to see how much of a premium buyers will pay for it.

My guess....$157,500.

BTW - 8bore, did my PM go through?


Thanks

OWD

I'll make my final guess once I get my catalog and can look at it more closely, but I will guess for now....$110K (hammer price).

Then again, all it takes is two people who really want it...

Even at $150K it is still a steal compared to what Colts are bringing.

Those estimates, unlike David's opinion that provenance won't make any difference, are more in the ballpark. That would mean that "provenance should make a 100% to 150% difference in value compared to a gun with no provenance. Working from base A-1 values, these two posters estimate that the Czar's gun will sell for two to three times the value of an A-1 without provenance. I agree, but will raise them another 100%. I would even accept a little surface rust.

OWD, no message so email me direct at wilmrph@verizon.net Bill Murphy

Is there any chance this Parker was used at the Battle of Little Big Horn? Maybe someone could "find" an old shotgun shell on the battlefield and tie it to the gun?

8bore - will do.

Thanks

OWD

It would be nice if Tony Galazan would just get on here and tell us all the truth about this gun that he made up.

Oh boy, here we go!! Good one Doug!

A paper trail has always been important to all guns/rifles.
The right original owner could breath life into the flagging high-grade classics market.

I hope that Doug T. is referring to the "Not the Czar's Gun" rather than the one coming up for sale. But who knows?

The one in the Parker story with the gold wire border work on the checkering. I am not sure what gun is offered in the auction.

You would be very surprised what paper work has been made for guns over the years.

Doug, the gun being offered at Julia's is the gun that was supposedly ordered for the Czar by a Russian Colonel. Tony's gun, the "gold gun" is still in Herzog's gun safe. If Tony will come clean about the "gold gun", will you tell us if you had anything to do with it? Merry Christmas. Bill Murphy

Why don't you tell us all about it Doug....and where did those creations come from?

Doug.....Remember the Old Addage'"Keep the Experts Guessing!!!!The Late Tommy Haas and the "Band of Brothers" he delt with used that 'Creedo'! Look what its done for the'Antique' gun market today!!!!!"Here's Looking At Your All Original *******!! Who said'Only The Shadow Knows'?This P/Bros.No.168304 is turning out to be an Interesting Project! I'm looking forward to my visit to 'J.D.J.Inc.with Capt.Fender& Col.LaRue. Gun History waiting to be'Made'.."Happy Holidays" Crossed Chisles.

David, I remember a conversation at Northbrook this year when you referenced Tommy Haas and it brought a smile to my face. Guys, I'm here to tell you that there are some scary good examples of ah "reproductions" out there in the world; all created by the "merry band of brothers". In fact the engraver of choice in that group (initials are H.A.) lives about 2 miles from me. I believe that the practice is still alive and well.

Doug, Did you see all the Great Photos Barry Lee H took of "The Group" @Northbrook? We all looked like we Knew what we were doing with our noses close to the Subject!!! I've not 'Touched Base' with 'H.A.'for many 'Moons'. Before T.H.Left for the'Reproduction part of "H",(That I'm sure he is running at 'FULL_BLAST') one of his 'Munchkins'told me 'He'wanted all myPhotos & Negs. destroyed, OR ELSE!!!(They went down with my ship,.'Moons' ago!!!!History and Firearms, Wonderful Stuff!!I'm trying to put some of my Leningrad, USSR Visit May 1991,Catherine the Greats Flintlock Fowler, Czar Nicholas ii,LeBeau, a Purdey 12 I was allowed to Strip-down to examin, and the Holland D/R...If I can figure out this PhotoBouquet....C/C

Doug and David, now you guys play nice or JJ will have a hard time getting his six figures. My V Grade Parkers are looking better all the time.

I am refering to the "Gold Gun" that is in the Herzog collection.
I know nothing about the other gun.

I bet some in the Parker vanity set are starting to gasp for air, and reaching for their nitro tablets on the night stand.
I can hear them ringing for their nurses now!

This is a pic of DT with the Catherine the Great fowler. Perhaps Mr Crossed Chisels can fill in the details.
BLH

The Photo that Barry L Hands has 'Posted'is another one that he found 'digging through my Albums' when he was on his visit to the Museum of Perpetual Mess!!!McIntosh, David Baker & I had Bribed our way into tha Artillery Museum,(Then Leningrad)Our Guide used Bottles of Vodka to get us our Tour! We were the only"Tourists" that had been inside the 'Fortress Walls" for a long time.MMcI and I did a several page story in D'Cote's Wonderful'Can never throw them away' DB/Gun/Journey.The Russian Gentleman I am with is Jurij Natsvaladze. He was the "Storeroom Curator"For some reason I was given free reign' to handle,Break-Down, any of the Firearms we wanted to look at, MMcI gives an explanation in the DGJ artical)The Flint Fowler was built for Catherine the Great, it was inlaid with Gold and crusted with precious stones.I was invited into the "Back-Room" of the storeroom where Ihandled weapons owned by Czars Alexander and Nicholas.Also a LeBeau .410 db Side-Lock built for one of Czar Nicholas II's children,(Have Grand Photos of it)I found a Purdey 12b, Holland DB Rifle, Mike did the later research on the H&H, I checked the Purdey out when I was deep in JPs records on my later visit to Audley St. Back then(1991) that Storeroom was a 'Treasure Trove'of Guns. Mike writes about our Travels in USSR,as usual there is 'Humor', Like me getting MMcI chased away from the front of our hotel by a 'Large Woman' wrapped in old sacks and waving a 'Witch's Broom above her head, and screaming in Russian'Something Not Nice, I'm Sure(Good Photos of that also!!)Mikes story'Misadventures in Mother Russia', is in 'Travelers Tales' I'm sure Carol @ Gunnerman see her Ad in Dbgun Book Rack.. Whowwie, I'm knackered....Crossedchisles.

My friend:
Not knackered but wonderful in a pixilated(best, happy definition) sort of way. You, your life and adventures are well worth a movie !!!!
Bless you !!
Best,
John

Barry, I'm willing to bet that in that photo David is showing the location of the T Haas proof mark See look where his finger is pointing!

Just kidding CC and yea I do remember the Barry photos at Northbrook. I didn't have a clue what we were looking at! Dave Norin and I were having a great time listening to you and Hugh Lomas. Of course I'm still upset that your ancestors threw my ancestors out of Scotland and then Ireland.

John Mann Esquire,I think it would be Interesting to compile a list of'Extraodinary Gentlemen'(LEG) that have been instrumental in keeping all these 'Lumps of Old Iron and wood in the Forefront of the 'Collectors(&Investors),say from the 1930's...I've been reading through my collection of American Rifleman(Bound in Red Stuff)back to 1931(Only problem is these all survived a basement sewer back-up in Indi-town) and I've spent Hours trying to seperate the pages!.But 21yrs later the pages tend to turn to old paper thats been down the 'John Crapper" Tuff to read, but Ive been copying as many of the photos that I can, "How to get the Rust off of Grandpappys Old .44Russian Smith&Wesson that he Killed Three Fingered Jack Dunlap with in Arizona,See gravesite in 'Boot Hill'I went there and took a couple of photos in 1976, The Stiff wire-wheel on the 1/3rd hp.'Lectric' was king for most restoration jobs back then!!! C/C

Doug, this is the pic of Dennis Potter, yourself, and Dave Norin, editor of "Gunmaker" at last springs Northbrook( special thanks to Murray H)
[img][/img]

And speaking of american custom guns, this is a three bore pnumatic golf ball shotgun. Notice the "homeless" style caison. This gun fires six golf balls with an electrically actuated charge of 150 psi from the big red tank. I dont know the range,
[img][/img]

Barry,
According to the order book, the Czar's golf ball gun was not on a shopping cart.

Barry,Better watch your timing when shooting your'Vertical shots" the Shuttle' is due to pass over your place, I think tomorrow! Where are you going to put the Gold Oval I've made for your'Custom Cart'?? Serious stuff now, The King of Romania's Pair of Purdeys are absolutely Perfect, after your'Cutting' the 'New-Bits' that I made, Harry Kell would have been proud to Shake your HANDS'.....I'll send photos of 'The Job' to Ken Hunt, he likes to see how We are keeping the Romance Alive!!..I will take "The Kings Purdeys" to Julia's for the'Photo Session with 'The Czar's'..Whoops!The 'Intended Order' for the Czar Nicholas II Parker Bros. 12b."I wonder where Czar N'II Marlin Shotgun that C.F.Ulrich carved the most Fantastic' Romanoff coat of Arms, both in the Steel, and into the Stock is these days???Maybe it went down(April 12 1912)With the 'Titanic'??? C/C

“CZAR NICHOLAS II” PARKER SHOTGUN AT AUCTION

Someone recently contacted me and directed me to this forum regarding the various discussions of the up-coming “Czar’s Parker” shotgun. I was certain that the recent discovery of the real “Czar’s Parker” shotgun would stimulate a tremendous amount of discussion amongst Parker enthusiasts, and can see from the discussion there are a number of questions. I have some information which I think will address some of the questions, and would like to share this with everyone to hopefully expand the discussion.

First, for those of you who don’t know me, my name is Jim Julia. I own James D. Julia Auctioneers. One of my auction divisions specializes in quality firearms. In the last 2½ years we have conducted 5 quality gun auctions grossing a total of $30 million dollars. In this same period, we have sold approximately $6.5 million of high quality shotguns. In 2005, we auctioned Jim Parker’s collection of approximately 150 Parker shotguns. I’ve been involved with antiques of all types for approximately 40 years now, and have aspired during, that time, to maintain a reputation for honesty and fair dealing. To that extent, I employ consultants from all over the country to catalog for my various auctions, and in addition, provide a written guarantee for all my descriptions. The descriptions that I guarantee are limited guarantees; however, they are to ensure a fair representation of the goods being offered for the benefit of both the buyer and the seller. My expertise for firearms comes from my consultants. I have a general knowledge about firearms as I do about Tiffany Lamps or fine painting, but my true expertise is in marketing and presentation and things associated with the auction process itself.

In my opinion, the “Czar’s Parker” shotgun is arguably one of the most significant Parker shotguns ever produced by the venerable firm in Meriden, Connecticut. I believe this for a couple of reasons. First of all, certainly, over the years it has reached fabled status. Another very significant aspect about this shotgun, in my opinion, is what it meant or could have meant to the Parker firm. The Parker shotgun was one of the finest shotguns ever produced in North America, and while Parker produced superb shotguns and had attained a very reputable position in the double gun world, it’s reputation in the world context did not equal that of the old-time English double gun firms such as Purdy, Holland & Holland, Boss, etc. The regard of the Parkers in various countries outside the United States had just simply not risen to the level of what the gun actually was; subsequently, the production of this gun for one of the most important figures in the world and his anticipated using of this gun to hopefully favorable response represented a major opportunity for the Parker firm to better establish itself amongst the reigning superior shotguns of the world at the time. Colonel Colt, approximately 50 years earlier, had learned this lesson extremely well, and to that extent he expended tremendous amounts of money preparing special Colt firearms engraved and embellished with gold, etc., which he presented free of charge to notable persons both in this country and around the world. The result was a worldwide recognition, respect, and comparable sales orders for his Colt firearms.

REGARDING THE HISTORY OF THE “CZAR’S PARKER”:

[*]I anticipate that many, if not all, of the readers in this forum are aware of Peter Johnson’s book, Parker: America’s Finest Shotgun, published in 1961. I believe this is where the first real public exposure or story of the “Czar’s Parker” shotgun first really appeared to Parker collectors. It is now known that much of what Mr. Johnson had described as the Czar’s Parker was, in fact, not accurate or true. The extraordinary description, however, with purported lavish gold and embellishments certainly created a tremendous amount of speculation and eventually resulted in the production of an upgraded fantasy Parker made to conform with what Johnson’s information had described. [*]When another book, The Parker Story (Gunther, Mullins, Parker, Price, Cody) was published, a great amount of very serious scholarly research was done and a special chapter in this book went into considerable detail about the Czar’s Parker and a great deal of more accurate information was now available at this time as the result of research in the Parker archives. Nearly all of the information presented at that time has proven to be accurate as a result of the recent discovery of the real “Czar’s Parker” [*]Until October of this past year, I had never read about the Czar’s Parker, nor did I know that such a gun existed. At that time, I received a phone call from a young woman who explained that her mother-in-law owned a famous Parker shotgun. She went on to explain that her late husband had inherited it from his father who had purchased it directly from Parker, and she referred to it as the “Czar’s Parker”. I was immediately intrigued, set up an appointment to visit the owner and view the gun. After hanging up, I did some research on the gun by reading the article in The Parker Story which turned out to be very accurate, and also talked with my shotgun consultant, J. R. LaRue, about his knowledge of this special shotgun. On the day of the appointment, I met with the elderly owner together with her family and her family lawyer.

[*]The very affluent owner had decided to sell the shotgun essentially because she thought it would be fun and exciting. There’s certainly, by no means, any necessity on her behalf to have to sell that or anything else she owned. Her husband had passed away several years earlier, and once every few years she and the family had her guns reappraised by a firearms specialist, and recently the appraiser had talked to her about the possibility of selling the “Czar’s Parker.” According to the family, she had been made a significant offer on the gun. As a result of a later family discussion, it was decided that it would be far more exciting and interesting to offer this famous gun at auction, and this is what originally precipitated the phone call to my firm.
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IS THIS THE REAL“CZAR’S PARKER”?

[*]This gun unquestionably is the gun that has for years been referred to as the “Czar’s Parker.” The actual Parker records note the production of this gun by Serial #168304, which is, of course, the correct serial number on the gun I will be offering.

[*]The authors of the book, The Parker Story, researched the archives of the local newspaper, the Meriden Journal, and discovered in the archives for March 7, 1914, an article which not only specifically stated that the Parker Company was producing a shotgun for Czar Nicholas II, but the article included certain specific details which could only have come from someone inside the Parker firm.

[*]Accompanying the Parker is the original letter sent by Wilbur F. Parker, Jr., to the purchaser of the Czar gun (the now deceased father-in-law of the current owner). In the letter, as cited in The Parker Story, Mr. Parker specifically states that the gun was originally ordered by the officers on the staff of the czar, and that it was to be presented to him. From the tone of the letter, it is also clear that Mr. Parker was familiar with the buyer and refers to his recent hunting trip in the Canadian woods. He also attempts in the letter to encourage the buyer to consider having an exact 20 gauge made for his wife, also. (Yes, I checked with the family, and the 20 gauge was never ordered, unfortunately.) In addition to the original letter, also kept by the original buyer were the hang tags and the Whitworth Steel Barrel certificates. All of these are original. They are not photocopies of the original. The details on the hang tags conform to those still existing in the Parker records and conform to the gun I am selling. There is no question in my mind that this is the gun that is referred to as the “Czar’s Parker.”
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WAS THIS GUN IN FACT MADE FOR CZAR NICHOLAS II?

[*]I don’t believe that there is any conclusive or positive way to prove that it was, but of equal importance, there is no way to prove that it wasn’t, and the assumption really has to be that this gun was made for the Czar of Russia. In order to assume that it isn’t, we must establish that there was a great conspiracy within the Parker management to substantiate or even foster this. I am sure that there are many scholars out there who are very familiar with the Parker firm, its history, and its practices. To my knowledge, this was a reputable firm, and not one prone to outright lies and deceit, but I’m sure that there are some of you out there who have more detailed factual knowledge and information about the firm than I. If, in fact, the Parker firm was over the years involved in various conspiracies, then perhaps these questions have some merit; otherwise, the facts dictate otherwise. Not only was the information leaked to the local press where an article was written, but Mr. Parker himself, in a letter to the buyer and someone he was obviously personally familiar with specifically states that his firm originally made this gun for the Czar of Russia. Again, to assume that the gun was not being prepared for the Czar is to imply that Wilbur Parker was part of a conspiracy and purposely lied to the public and to the buyer. I certainly cannot prove that this is not the case, but as I said, it can equally be said that there is absolutely no proof to the contrary.
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WAS THE GUN EVER DELIVERED TO THE CZAR?

[*]It is obvious that the gun never was delivered to the Czar. Mr. Parker in his letter specifically states that, and also essentially states why. Obviously, had the gun been delivered to the Czar, and had he used it and commented on it favorably, and as a result ordered other Parkers this, indeed, would have been a tremendous coup for Parker, and certainly would have gone a long, long way stimulating a considerable amount of international sales for the Parker firm. Of course, it’s also quite obvious, that had this Parker ever been delivered to the Czar in light of the outbreak of the First World War, the over-throw of the Czar, etc., the gun would have most likely been lost forever. The fact that the gun was made for one of the most important heads of state in the world at the time, I believe, certainly adds a tremendous amount of appeal and historic value to this item as one of the most significant of all Parker productions.
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WHAT CAN BE THE VALUE OF THIS GUN?

[*]I realize that there has been a lot of discussion about this, and as some people have pointed out, an A1 Special is essentially worth $50,000 to $75,000. However, there is a value for history; and the price of history can, in some cases, be worth a significant amount of money. That amount of money is always determined by the buyers. A few years ago, I sold a Model 66 Winchester rifle which as a rifle only was worth between $3,000 and $5,000; however, it was proven to have been used at the Battle of The Little Big Horn and subsequently brought $684,000. History certainly has a significant impact upon the value of an object, and it is always very difficult to access exactly what amount of value that would have. The owner of the gun, I am told, was purportedly offered by a dealer essentially at the low end of my estimate range. As I said earlier, though, there has never been a Parker shotgun as fabled as the “Czar’s Parker”, nor one that potentially was or could have been of greater significance to the Parker firm and its history. I, of course, hope for a very high price not only for myself and my consignor, but also as I know from past experience should this particular Parker bring a very strong price it would also have a positive impact upon the value of quality Parkers in general. Much of my experience in the past has been that whenever a select Colt, a very important decoy, or an outstanding Tiffany item brings a truly strong price because of its significance, it tends to impart an upward trend or movement on other quality items of its genre. Less than a year ago, I sold a fine Colt Walker pistol for a now new world record of $431,000. As a result since that successful sale, a couple of other Walkers have come onto the market, and have brought considerably more than what they normally would have before the new world record price. Of course, the down side is for those who continue to collect, an increase in prices just makes it that much more difficult to buy the quality things that you’d like to add to your collection, and I realize that there are a certain amount of Parker lovers who for their own specific reasons would prefer to see Parker prices get cheaper rather than more expensive. In general, though, we all benefit by the notoriety and/or positive results that might possibly be realized on special occasions as this.
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IN REGARDS TO THE QUESTION ABOUT THE ATYPICAL STOCK AND WHETHER IT IS A PARKER STOCK OR NOT

[*]The stock is not a Parker stock and has been replaced, and this replacement was not made by the Parker firm, and I’m sure any Parker scholar would know that after examining the stock in person. It is my theory that the stock was purposely changed--not a replacement for a previously broken stock. I believe that the original owner (long since deceased) who purchased it from the Parker firm required a longer pull than the Czar did. The stock, as per the original Parker hang tag, and as per the information detailed in the Parker records had a 14” pull. The current stock has a 15” pull, and reflects the obvious larger stature of it’s American owner as opposed to the 14” stock ordered for the Czar. I believe, however I cannot prove, that the replacement stock was made at the direction of Abercrombie & Fitch. The original buyer lived in New York, and was a frequent customer of the nearby Abercrombie & Fitch store. At the time that the stock was replaced, a small gold medallion was embedded in the stock and an Abercrombie & Fitch leather case was made to specifically accommodate this new longer stock which also was embellished with his initials. The replacement stock and the case probably were built at the time that the original owner had the gun and before the current owner’s husband inherited it. Unfortunately, the original stock and case must have been misplaced or lost at the time the estate was settled. No one in the current family knows of its whereabouts or recalls seeing it in the current owner’s (their mother’s) home.
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ONE QUESTION AROSE REGARDING WHAT THE GRADE OF GUN SHOULD HAVE BEEN:

[*]According to a printed book of serial numbers, this serial number should have been an AAHE grade. This gun is most definitely an A1 Special; and, in fact, is exactly what was ordered according to the hang tags. The incorrect information in the book with the serial numbers resulted at the time that the book was compiled. The author of the book, when instructing the data entry person, had taught them that an A1 Special was $500; and so that any gun whose sale price equaled $500 would have been an A1 Special. Whereas a $375 gun would have been an AAHE. However, what he failed to point out to the data entry person was that during that time period in 1914, Parker reduced the price on their A1 Specials to $375, obviously to stimulate the sale of a greater number of these high-grade guns.
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ARE THE DOCUMENTS GENUINE?

[*]This is a very practical question. As the historic value of objects become greater and greater, more and more people resort to creating more and more convincing ways to prove an object is genuine; and now, oftentimes, one needs to analyze such provenance very carefully. I have been involved in the antiques business for approximately 40 years, and have during that period handled a great number of historic items, and also have been exposed during that period of time a great number of items that have turned out to be fake. I’ve learned not only to question documents, but also to learn the value of supporting evidence. Having handled numerable documents over the years, I am reasonably familiar with period documents, and I can positively guarantee these documents to be unquestionably genuine and original. Not only are they genuine and original, but as equally important are the circumstances surrounding the documents and the gun. The gun has not passed through multiple hands. It has remained in the same family since its purchase from Parker in 1915. The current elderly owner, a lady of pride and integrity, has no motivation or need to be involved in a fraud, but also is personally incapable of doing something of this nature. The documents absolutely and positively are genuine and period to the gun.
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I hope that the information I supplied here serves to answer questions that some of you may have, and I know that at least a couple of noted authors are in the process of writing articles about the gun, and I’m sure that these stories will have further details and information valuable to all Parker scholars. In addition, in another week I will be publishing a number of pictures on my website of the certificates, the hang tags, etc, so that any of you who would like to look at them will be able to access them on our website http://www.juliaauctions.com.
On another note, I know that a few Parker collectors are planning on attending the sale, and then hope to get together. There are various hotels nearby our auction facility in the nearby town of Waterville, Maine (approximately four miles away). We do, however, have a special arrangement with the Holiday Inn that provides a discounted rate to anyone attending our Firearms auction. When you call to make your reservations, you specify that you are going to the Julia Firearms auction and they will quote you a preferred rate which I believe is somewhere around $50 (either a little less or a little more, but I know it is somewhere in this range). The auction will include many other fine shotguns including other fine Parkers. We will have at least two days preview prior to the auction of the Parker, and there is a preview each day of the auction commencing at 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m., the time of the actual auction. We offer complimentary food and drink during our preview times and on the days of the auction a complimentary lunch together with beverages. If I or my firm can be of further assistance to any Parker enthusiasts, we would certainly like to hear from you.
Sincerely,

Jim Julia

Thanks for the background, Jim. I've bought a few Parkers from you in the past few auctions and have been pleased with all of them. I can't say your appraisers are flawless but they do a great job and I consider your auction house the best there is for guns. As I wish to stay married I won't be bidding on the Czar's gun.

I'd like to toss in my 2 cents on the comment "and as a result ordered other Parkers this, indeed, would have been a tremendous coup for Parker, and certainly would have gone a long, long way stimulating a considerable amount of international sales for the Parker firm."

I understand the basis for this statement and as you note "I can't disprove it" but it's also quite possible the Czar would have taken a glance at the gun and said "Wow, very nice" then tossed it in his gun room with the dozens of other fine guns he must have owned. He might have never used it, or maybe he would have put it in the "Guest Use" rack. My point being that while any of us would flip out over this gun he might well have just gotten a momentary rise out of it. We all know what F. Scott Fitgerald said about the very rich.....

The American gun has never been well throught of world-wide, but in turn, we've been deluged by all this Continental European crap.
...and still you buy 'em!
Glad these things stay at home.

Does the Czar's gun have the same insides as my 1913 VH?

Mr Julia, your text is the evidence that you ARE an expert of marketing and presentation

Zutz alledges that the lower grade Parkers are prone to having soft parts in them. I suspect one could say an A1 Special would have a bit more quality control on it's otherwise identicle to a Vulcan parts.

No dog in this fight. The bolt leaves me cold.
Best,
Ted

I've no dog in the discussion either, Ted. It just seems crazy to pay so much for a rare Colt or Parker, as with a piece of carbon that DeBeers has conned the world into believing is worth a king's ransom. At least the lady wears a diamond.

I'd rather have a 16 gauge 0 frame. In fact, I was offered first pick gratis of a friend's fabulous Parker collection 40 years ago and chose the least expensive and most valued by me 0 frame which once sold for $40 after couple months' labour.

My mantra is to pick the gun that fits and feels right, leave the other stuff for the money men who are investors.

Look at it this way King - Rosie O'Donnel has the same parts inside of her as does Jennifer Aniston. It's on the outside that counts.

Greg: "has the same parts inside".
Ya just been caught "assuming"

Greg
One parts gun that does not interest me.

Somewtimes these posts are better than the best sitcoms. Thanks.

Jim Julia in reading your post about the Czar Parker....You have convinced me of one thing.
Even you are not convinced it's the "Real McCoy".

Remuddled Parker accompanied by Parker hang tags and legend. A Grail from a Mason jar? Good deal on accomodations while pondering the value of history. Now where did I put that old box Daddy said was the Arc of the Covenant?

jack

Hmmm:

Gentlemen - I am not a Parker person . For me they are just another farmers gun with really good marketing during their productive life. I don't have a dog in this fight. Following this thread has been instructive and the comparison between O'Donnel and Anniston worthy of recollection.

Reading the discussion though, I have reached the conclusion that the gun very likely is what it purports to be, and Mr. Julia is indeed convinced that its the Real McCoy.

The gun has provenance and a paper trail unless someone would allege fraud running over 3 generations as well as fraud and deceit on the part of the Parker Company.Such a "Conspiracy", in this instance, fails Occam's Razor big time.

The source of the original order might have misinformed Parker of its planned final destination so there is no guarantee that the gun was intended for the Czar. But it is a nice gun, and all the evidence points to it being the one which left Parker so long ago. How much it is worth is a topic that ya'll can debate.
I would rather have the King of Iraq's 1933 NID.

Just my ideas. I am not likely to bid on the Parker, so my ideas dont really count, do they?

Regards

GKT

Sure, your ideas count as do all those from members generous enough to offer them. There's rarely one that doesn't include something I haven't thought of. That's why I poke my nose here every day. In my work, only ideas have a premium. Regards, King

OK, I'll take your word for it, that an A-1 Special is worth around $50-60k. And I can see the added value of the "Provenance". However, the gun is NOT original, and a stock replacement is not exactly a minor modification.

For those who think it's worth the estimate, I have the axe George W. used on the cherry tree. True, it's had the handle replaced 3 times, and 2 new heads, but it's still his axe.
What am I offered?

Pete

If Thurston Howell III doesn't know the value of a fine gun, no one does. By the by, Thurston, Ginger or Maryanne?

I don't know about the rest of you but just the thought of the above will probably move the cocktail hour up some for me today!!

Wonder if RL Wilson can authenticate this piece...

My favorite part of this whole story is the seller's motivation to auction as 'fun and exciting'. This must be different than the common 'trolling for suckers' we find on the gun auction sites since the owner is wealthy and dosen't need the money.

I just bought a F grade Remington 1100 that I intend to give to JFK. No wait he is dead. Then I will give it to Ike. No wait he is dead. I will give it to Ronald Reagan. No wait he is dead. Well, I have a gun that was to be a gift to three Presidents. Must be worth a million dollars. Sounds just like this gun to me.

If the gun never got delivered, it is all BS to me. Then it comes down to what the gun is, as it is, right now. Restocked?, bad news. Qusetionable history with decenters making some strong points. Not a gun that I would drop 50-75K on. But that is why I have no interest in this gun. I would rather put that much money into two of the best grade Lefevers any day, than one Parker.

You betcha I do!!
And to answer your question, Both, at the same time, of course!

Pete

Ah yes,a side by side man!

I have been known to dabble in over and unders as well.

Sounds like a drilling to me.

King Brown, Capt. Jim Fender and myself, With the able assistance of Mr JR LaRue will be visiting mr Jim' Julia's later this week. I hope to be able to answer your Parker/Question....Squire Glenthorn, Whilst 'Serving My Queen & Country. in Her Most Britannic Majesty's Army,(And Minister of War,Kristine Mandy Profumo)2nd Batt.Backstreet Irregulars'I found that American'Guns' ( I'll refrain from differentiating between'Gun, Rifle etc.)were the most 'sort over' by The part of the Green Jackets Brigade that were,(at that time)in the Jungles of Malaya,the Forests of the Aberdare's(Kenya)and Belfast N. Ireland.The most sort after in side-arms was the Colt 1911.45auto.Next in Popularity was the Thompson .45ACP.M1& M1A1. The M1 Carbine .30cal.Of which a Total of 2,625,000 were built by Inland div Gen Motors alone) was really popular with "Good Guy & Bad Guys alike. The IRA used them to great aclaim against my Regiment,KRRC.Green Jackets in N Ireland.."Yankee" Shotguns saw 'Stellar Service" in Viet-Nam,I have friends from my days of working with Disabled Veterans from WWII, Korea,& Viet-Nam,who used(with Great effect) Winchester mod 1897s,W. mod 12,Trench Mods.)Remington Mod 870,So, my point being,American 'Guns"are,and have been in the past,"Very Well Thought-of.! My 'Old Man'When rolling through Holland& Belgium with the British Army,(Monty & all That!)Had a "Gun,Submachine,Cal.45 M3 (Grease-Gun)I did'nt hear any of his stories about how well it"Racked-Up" the Many 'Kills he made with it.untill a 'Lunch-Time at the Irongate Pub, with the Purdey Crowd,on my 18th B/Day.He loved that "Yank Grease Gun". I'm sure thet 'Geno', St Petersburg, has seen all the American Firearms that McIntosh & myself had the Opportunity to examine on our 'Clandestine' Visit to the'Artillery Museum' in then Leningrad.Mr Jurij Natsvalandze,Curator, told us of 'Many,Many American Shotguns and Rifles that had been 'Collected' by'His Army' from all overEurope from many years ago!Could this be moreCzars shotguns & Rifles?????I have a Lefever 'C' 12b 30" that was found in S Korea in the 1950s!Mr 'Q' Lefever, has his 'I' on it!!American "GUNS" are well thought of, World Wide.. CC.

If so ;), there's a curious linguistic point, not really relevant, but, well, curious. As y'all probably know, in the Russian language the word "czar" can be used as a prefix, meaning "the best" or "the biggest", like the Czar-Cannon and the Czar-Bell from the Moscow Kremlin. You can coin words like "czar-girl", "czar-sword", or... Czar-Parker (there's also an adjectice "czarski" with the same meaning). In the context of the problem discussed, there seem to be grounds for a lost-in-translation case

Humpty, seeins' as you're in Russia I thought I'd pass along some further linguistics for you to ponder.

Down here in Texas you can go to just about any Italian restaurant and order a Czar salad.

The US Constitution protects against illegal search and Czar.

In 1849 the Gold Rush in California was set into motion when someone cried, "There's gold in them Czar hills!"

If you are have cornrows in your hair, are unruly in public and resist arrest, the cops are likely to Tsar you into submission.

Has anyone run a "Tony Gauge" into the muzzles to check the choke dimensions? Not only that, are the ejectors fully operational? I can't see shipping this piece off to Babe DelGrego on a UPS truck for ejector repairs. As an aside, I regard Mr. Julia's comments as quite professional, and about all he can contribute. Thanks.

This thread has produced some fantastic information and some very interesting points of view. This gun, seems to me, falls far outside the relm of usual market. It could be a very historically significent gun or it could be a fake. I surely am interested to see what those voting with money think.

Gentlemen.When the word"Fake" is used,are we referring to the'Gun", or the additional enhancement to the "Gun"?? I have examined'A Couple of 100% Original'Guns' But the'Art of the Engraver" has put that Weapon into the Realm of 'Not Quite what the Gunmaker Delivered as his finished work. I dont think Mister Parker actually built a Gun to try and 'Dupe'any Client. And of the Several Ansley H Fox Guns that have Passed my Workbench. some with Provenance,(enough to fill a small Book)I'm sure all the 'Dirty-Hands' Craftsmen who toiled for many, many hours building the Classic Shotguns that today are fetching prices that 'Boggle the mind"Had no part in the 'Enhancement'/Decoration of these Wonderful,Historical Weapons! CC.

XC - "fake" can take a lot of twists and turns; everything from "improvement" of current condition to outright building of a new gun that may fool everyone to making/shading/improving of documents. Mr. Julia made a strong case for this gun being "intended" to belong to the Czar. Yet, "intent" is very hard to prove. On the other hand, this gun seems very likely to be one of actual mystery guns of the last century. What is that worth? The price range for this gun begs the most careful of scrutiny, research, and discussion. There is also the possibility that this gun's documentation was part of a practical joke that has taken on life of its own. I doubt that any of the craftsmen involved in the gun had any intent to "fake" anything,butthe interpertation of their work may be an issue. Fun to speculate, but I'm really interested to see what the money thinks.

My take on this gun, and I can speculate as good as the next guy, is that old Wilber had this returned A1-Special to unload, and he greased some well heeled customer with the "you can have a gun made for the Czar story." This gun has no special engraving, no Romanoff double-headed eagle, no Nikki II crest, and no rib appelation. Nothing like the Brothers P did for President Benj. Harrison. My bet is old Wilber had read the press on the Marlin pump for the Czar and with the spark that this gun had originally been ordered by a Russian Col. made the rest up as a sales ploy to hook this well to do customer! The Ulrich engraved Marlin had the Romanoff Eagle in gold on the right side, the Russian Bear rampant protecting her cubs in gold on the left side, and on top the Czar's personal crest (N II) inlaid in platinum.

The gun is a rightious A1-Special, with a replacement stock, and an interesting sales history.

Ok... when will David and the others actually inspect this gem?

Regards

GKT

Greg Tag, Email this pm.from J.J.Re-Scheduled"Date with Czars-Parker"....'Anticipation'!!

David:

OK OK OK.....

When is it? Anticipation is right. I want to hear how this story ends.

Regards

GKT

Greg...Thought your Humor was(IS) great...Let me say just how UN/funny Guns'Standing in the Rack,Guns in Stripped down boxes, Guns in the vice being re-stocked, Guns waiting to have new'Limbs Fitted,Soft bit on the 'back-end of the stock waiting to be Wrapped in'Luxurious Leather' The JP&s i2b O/U in the Setting Bench......Phweeee! that was close, Flashpoint of the Special Oil imported from'Distant Lands"was a split second from'Bursting into Flames"(We always have a bottle of Heineken on stand by, for such emergencys)Iv'e never heard a gun,or rifle Laugh' Mabe its just that I need a few more years at the bench, 1953 was'nt all that long ago..!!!cc

Personally I wouldn't care if the gun was made for a Russian Czar or for Elvis Presley. It's just a machine made by men. This crap of heaping tons of money on provenance that indicates some illuminary once owned a gun is foolishness. Evaluate the gun for what it is, not for who might have owned it in the past!

JMHO,

Curl