doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Trading for an English gun, help.

It's not about distrust; it's about education. Your gun was rebarreled in 1964 and they saved the rib to keep the gun looking nice. It's a practice that did not raise objections like it would today. The barrels were struck as close as possible to the originals but I know your gun is heavier than mine. The checkering also was freshened by an ex-Purdey man about a decade ago. I've also learned that the guns were not sold to G&H as a pair. Mine went to them and some years later your gun was sold to Mid-South. Why your gun needed replacement barrels is a mystery but I'd guess it had something to do with an accident or a clumsy header. You own a very nice gun.

Your guesstimate of the date was way wrong. These are standard Birmingham marks for the 1954 rules of proof (executive date 2/1/55). Crown over BNP is the new Birmingham definitive proof mark; .729", 12 in a diamond, 2 1/2", and 3 tons per (square)" are bore, chamber, chamber length and service pressure.



It's a crown over the interlaced letters BP. Birmingham provisional proof. Indicates that these barrels originated in Birmingham.



It isn't an X, it's a pair of crossed swords. This is the date code. The letter "P" will be in the 9 o'clock angle, the "1" in the 6 o'clock angle (identity of the proof inspector conducting proof). What you're having trouble with is in the 3 o'clock angle. Can't be a crown. I think it has to be letter "B", since there's no other letter that can accompany letter P that was used with this style of date code. "PB" is the date code for 1964.



Yeah, the definitive proof mark was stamped there since the inspector's view mark previously placed there was eliminated under the 1954 rules. You didn't mention London's view mark (Crown over "V") from the original London proof that would be stamped on either side of the water table. They should be there, along with Birmingham's definitive proof mark.

The Crown over "R" reproof mark is not used when new barrels are proved on a previously proven gun. Since it seems to be absent, the barrels are definitely a replacement.

Hint: Lang was a Webley O&O long before and long after this gun was made. That should make it obvious why the suggestion is laughable.

What's a "Webley O&O"?


OWD

OK,I have more info, on the barrels ahead of the flats I had said there was a H with a crown, that turns out to be a BP with a crown.
I looked in Diggory Hadoke's book, which is an excellent book and identified the symbols as Birmingham proof marks between 1954 and 1989.
So I would say these are replacement barrels and are faily current. So how does that affect my asking price? I have two questions though,
Why didn't they chamber it for 2 3/4"? If they were made after 1950 I would assume that they would have done that.
Also would Atkin Grant and Lang been involved and were they incorperated with them at that time?

This is all speculative without the pictures but,

1. The owner controlled what was done to the gun as witness the articulated front trigger. This means that he chose to have the gun barrels done in a manner that fitted his use of the gun and probably to keep the pair reasonably matched. That would explain the 2.5 inch chambers although so would the guns being used in the UK.

2. You have been told the gun was rebarreled in 1964 and I have no reason to doubt the owner of the #1 gun who has apparently done his research.

3. Value is still up in the air as we don't know what might have been done to alter the gun since 1964. One big question is whether or not the gun is in proof--that is, do the current bore measurements and condition match the marks from 1964?

4. It is highly unlikely that the current Atkin, Grant & Lang establishment were involved but that community in the UK is small enough that personnel may well know who did the work.

BV3-OQ1-CC1 = $20,000 Pristine = top one gun of one hundred like guns
BV3-OQ1-CC2 = $14,000 Limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting
BV3-OQ1-CC3 = $10,500 Significent use
BV3-OQ1-CC4 = $ 8,000 Heavy use, but no abuse
BV3-OQ1-CC5 = $ 6,000 Minor repairs needed or restoration accomplished

The above is market research on values. Price is the number between buyer and seller. Value is the common ground starting point for a price negotiation. You are pricing at CC3 condition and the "buyers' point of view," as above, is being expressed more toward the CC4 to CC5 range. This says that the uncertainty about the barrels is causing a value hit. With the new information, we may be able to refine the value of the gun with "replacement barrels by maker." Shooter value alone won't support the above values. So, you must add in some collector/pride of ownership value. The new barrels could give a slight boost to shooter value, but will cause a hit to collector value.

Do you think I may be able to trade even on a Sterlingworth?

12g, not a 16.

Ha!

Nah, just kidding. Your Hussey is nice.

Two 12g Sterlingworths.

OWD

I bet Lowell will trade ya....