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Forums10
Topics38,506
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
Vickers, Sons & Company/Vickers, Sons & Maim/Naylor, Vickers, & Co. were chummy with Krupp post 1900 and were paying royalties for either armament, ammo or both. Alone Krupp couldn't make great advances as they had contractual obligations. But by 1912 they too were in the stainless steel game. So, why not lump the steel type recipes and armament together in one royalty payment?? The reason I mention this is that I suspect that Thomas Kilby & Sons procured steel from one of the Vickers entities/reps and they would pretty much have had one stop shopping: Krupp, Vickers, Whitworth, and possibly others. Armstrong was shackled to both Vickers and Whitworth and may have been the Whitworth link but I'm not sure of the date or time period when it all materialzied - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post177490 .  The reason for all this Vickers conjecture is that there's a stamp forward of the flats that reminds me of either a Vicker's hardness test(but this was 1924 or after) or a Vicker's type trademark. Also, I'm not sure I've seen the English version of the Krupp 3 Ring Gun Barrel Steel. But could Krupp have broken the deal with Sauer and doled out the 3 Ring Steel to Vickers, or some other steel entity that was paying royalties? This might be all for naught as it might be that of Matska. As a side note I forgot to mention in the 1897-1902 period Bethlehem Steel(of Penn. I think) was also in the mix and all involved paid Krupp $45 per ton of hull armour produced. So the Krupp-Bethlehem connection also. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
The Brothers Vickers, Albert & Thomas, in the mid 19th century traveled to German to be educated on the latest and greatest in steel technology advances at Neuweidd on the Rhine, or at least Thomas was a recipent. I think it was a decade earlier that Krupp made the reverse trip for the same.
1886 Steel analysis
Vickers #8568 - 0.219% Carbon, 0.529% Manganese, 0.107% Silicon, 0.031% Sulphur, 0.016% Copper
Messieurs C. Cammell & Company - Open Hearth
Messieurs Firth & Sons - Crucible Steel Type
The Royal Gun Factory - Open Hearth
Messieurs Vickers, Sons & Company - Modified Open Hearth??? using German technology???
Sir J. Whitworth & Company - Open Hearth Compressed Fluid Steel forged by a press
Now these were British steel sources for big guns in the 1880s, but I think the sourcing can be extended to small weapons tube forgers like Joseph Kiffin & Thomas Kilby.
Another side note for Bethlehem Steel Company - by the turn of the 20th Century they supplied Nickel steel barrels to Winchester Repeating Arms & Colt's Patent Fire Arms Company
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
For the moment, this is the only thread I could think of to attach the following images of Mike Ford's Emil Kerner combo with "Original Kerner" stamped on the tube. It is made on the Ernst Kerner-Anson action and looks to have been made by Wilhelm Kelber for the most part as his monogram is stamped near the forend hanger as well as on the standing breech, unless it is some type of Kerner monogram. I spent yesterday morning with Mike Ford in Lafeyete, Alabama, where he is ahead of the game on Riverview time(Eastern), sifting thru his collection. Now I for one will freely admit that my photography skills with a cell phone are lacking so here are the images:   "WK" monogram near the forend hanger & near the initials "W.K." I think this same image to be found after the bullet on the Krupp tube steel type stamp.  "WK" monogram on standing breech  Also note the proof date of December 1923 as well as a ledger number. So it appears that Suhl began with a ledger number stamp but abandoned it at some point early on. Here's a thread with Vol423's 16 bore with a similar ledger number: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=233252#Post233252 Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
From time to time I get inquiries on steel types so getting back on task on the Krupp theme, I've read many references, even Krupp, that give that the patent for the Krupp Stahl NIROSTA(Nitro Stahl - Nichtrostendender) was filed by Krupp on Oktober 17th, 1912. As usual there's a small error of 1 day in that as far as I can tell and there is a Krupp patent for that date but it is centered around a fuse or something of the like. Said error will drive you mad as the search becomes a brute force one. So the truth as it appears is that in 1910 a effort by Krupp to compose this steel was mounted and by Oktober 18th, 1912 a most accomplished metal guy named Benno Strauß(1.30.1873 - 9.27.1944), along with his faithful assistant Eduard Mauer, filed DRP 304126 under the alias/pen name/stage name Clemens Pasel(Pasal/Pascal) and subsequent DRP 304159. At first I thought the a.k.a./stage name might have been to mask the Krupp firm in an attempt to fend off competition as all steel makers were rushing to find the Holy Grail of steels during this time. Then I began to dig for info on Benno Strauß who was a Jew by birth in January 1873 in Fürth to a merchant family, Nathan Strauß & Babette Strauß. The short of it being, during WWI(1917) he converted to Christianity and fumbled an opportunity to escape the oppression experienced by the Jews a few days prior to the start of WWII. In September 1944(Krupp did pay him his pension 9.27.1944) his fate was sealed with an order to proceed to Vorwohle bei Holzminden, where within a few days he expired and speculation is that it was pneumonia. There's more of course and I can post the patents with the composition if any are interested.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Yes, I would definitely like to see its composition.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
 DRP 304126 Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,814 Likes: 194 |
 DRP 304159 Ranges of elements: 15 - 40 Prozent(%) Chrom. 20 - 4 Prozent(Precent) Nickel 1 Prozent(Precent) Carbon Like about everything else, a quaint search evolves into an encyclopedia. But some sources give that Benno Strauß a.k.a. Clemens Pasel was a chemist at BASF(Carl Bosch von der Badischen Anlin und Soda Fabrik) and Krupp initially expressed interest and then funded an effort for a shipment of NIROSTA V2A circa 1914. Some sources give that Benno Strauß joined Krupp's Physics department in 1899 and was the head of Krupp's chemical laboratory by 1904. A bit difficult to discern but it appears that Benno Strauß's research efforts during 1908 - 1912 were funded by Krupp but it required some expensive synthesis of ammonia at the BASF concern to produce the stainless & acid resistant alloy. Maybe Benno Strauß and assistant Eduard Mauer had a satellite office at the BASF facility until the required ammonia component was derived. But the effort was very expensive and Benno Strauß/Clemens Pasel butted heads with management/the funding leg of Krupp's umbrella. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
I'm guessing there's supposed to be a decimal point in front of these numbers.
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