doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Krupp barrel composition

Raimey, circa 1905-1910 many makers used Krupp barrels. I can think of Ithaca, Fox, Baker, Stevens, Torkelson, Tobin etc. Unrest in Europe affected all of these makers, in that barrels became harder to buy from there. I have seen pictures of an old gun factory in the US that showed rough barrel forgings laying flat in racks along a wall. There must have been several hundred in that picture.

Today I viewed at least a baker's dozen of drillings at the Alabama Gun Collector's show in Birmingham and one was an underlever proofed in Zella-Mehlis during 3.12(March 1912 - Suhl began with the new proof rules in April while Zella-Mehlis led the way beginning on September 1st, 1911) that had an older Krupp stamp on the top of the scattergun tubes but also with a "Acier Cockerill LLH" stamp on the bottom of the scattergun tubes but with a Krupp rifled tube. The guy reiterated that it had Krupp tubes because of the Krupp stamp atop and I told him that it didn't matter what was stamped on the top, the scattergun tubes were Cockerill steel sourced from LLH. Interesting mixture and I'm suprised the Cockerill was filed off if the owner wanted Krupp tube steel. I am beginning to be suspect of any steel type tube stamp unless supported with an analysis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The following is a pic from Ludwig Borovnik's site, http://en.precision-rifle.com/ :



He's probably attaching his Ferlach assigned craftsman number but I think it gives insight as to how most of the marks were applied; one at a time. Although post WWII, I assume this to have been tradition and varied very little froma pre-WWII effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Info from marks/stamps suggests that LLH, or possibly some other Belgian tube maker, may have had a contract with Krupp firm for steel for tubes or may have imported tubes in the rough but I haven't seen perliminary German marks on tubes stamped with "LLH" and "Krupp Stahl".



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So how can a tube acquire a Krupp steel stamp atop and have a Acier Cockerill LLH" stamp below? Well, LLH(Laurent Lochet-Habran - http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...aurent%20gb.htm ) possibly under an umbrella contract thru a licensing agreement between Krupp & FN circa 1900, was making tubes, some of which were for export to the U.S. of A., and may have pulled the wrong tube from the wrong bin. LLH, Lucian Clement, possibly Sl - Syndicat liegeois. & others?, either had a license to use Krupp ingot steel or were under the umbrella of the FN-Krupp agreement.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A few Russian sources give Krupp Fluss Stahl as having:

0.45% Carbon
0.035%(Up to) Phosphorus
0.70% Manganese
0.25% Silicon
0.035%(Up to) Sulphur

They also note Special(Spezial-German)-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl as being patented by Krupp in 1896 and having the following components:

0.61% Carbon
0.04% to 0.43% Phosphrous
0.65% Manganese
0.65%(??) Silicon
0.04% to 0.43% Sulphur

They give Nirosta(stainless steel) as having 18% Chromium & 8% Nickel in it's classified component content. Also noting that it was a very difficult steel to blue or cosmetically alter.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'd think the first analysis would be closer to the actual composition- the second sounds like AH Fox Chromox , developed after the Krauts cut off the flow of Krupp Stahl following the Lusitania business- go figure. Nicht Fur Kugel-- Not for use with slugs- wonder why so--

The House of Krupp is indeed a great read- they had developed nickel based ordnance steels, but even during the Boer War- the Junker High Command would only approve Brass alloys for their mortar and field cannons- Mauser and the Big Bertha of WW1 changed their minds, and Krupp, like Siemens and I.G. Farben and bayer, became Kraut wartime dynasties, both the 1914-1918 version and the sequel 1939-1945- Jawohl!!

I have a Smith 12 gauge 2E mfg. 1907- Crown Steel with that LLH- a friend has two very much higher graded ejector Smiths purchased by his late relative circa 1909=1910- One has the Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel on the top barrel breech, and the seperate series of numbers and the sheaf of wheat symbol on each barrel flat- the other has Krupp Flusshall (fluid steel) barrels and also so marked on the barrel breech--

Interesting old thread. Percentage historical opprobrium never made the list despite a couple of suggestions that it should. Does your Arisaka vibrate with evil when you shoot it at paper? No? Good thing for you. The merchants of efficient death know no borders and have adapted pretty well to peacetime spillover. Can you say Antron? Don't get your knickers in a twist over a name on a piece of steel cooked in Pennsylvania.

jack

Post deleted by R.R.