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Bonhams Auction 2014
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#149855 - 06/01/09 12:51 PM Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side
YoungCollector Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 4
I Purchased this shot gun from a gun shop about a 1.5 years ago. It was on consignment, so the shop owner couldn't tell me much about it. I'm having trouble finding information of the manufacturer, and would like some input on where to look, or maybe some personal knowledge on the value and manufacturing date of this shotgun. It is a Double barrel pin-fire shot gun, with numerous markings "Isaac Hollis and sons." I have not found any serial number. The only information I have is that Pin-fire shot guns were no longer manufactured after 1896 ( or something like that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.





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#149863 - 06/01/09 01:21 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: YoungCollector]
Tinker Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 802
Loc: Palomino Valley, NV
YC-


I own and shoot a few different SxS pinfire shotguns and rifles.
Your shotgun looks very nice, and would likely be a good hunting gun if you get yourself set up to load and shoot it.


Isaac Hollis and Sons was a highly respected maker of very high quality sporting guns and rifles.

Pinched off the web (somewhere some time ago...)
"Isaac Hollis & Sons operated in Birmingham England circa 1861 to 1900 with sales offices in various fashionable London addresses. An 1868 advertisement reads: "ISAAC HOLLIS & SONS (late Hollis & Sheath) Manufacturers of Every Description of Breech or Muzzle Loading Sporting & Military Guns, Rifles, Pistols, Revolvers &c., A Large Finished Stock always on hand of Breech-Loading Double Guns and Double Rifles for Central Fire or Pin Cartridges; Muzzle-Loading Single and Double guns, at all prices from the lowest; Military Rifles of all kinds, Long and Short Enfield, Cavalry and Artillery; Pistols &C.; Breech-Loading Military and Sporting Rifles on 'Snider's,' 'Chassepot's,' "Major Fosbery's.' 'Green's,' and other Patented Systems; Gun Cases and Implements, Portable Leather Cases, Holsters &c. Manufactory 5 to 11 Weaman Row, Birmingham. Established 1814."


Where are you located?
Do you handload?
Do you have any experience in craft or metalwork?
Making and reloading pinfire cartridges is very much possible but it takes a bit of fiddling - but it's very rewarding too.





Cheers
Tinker

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#149866 - 06/01/09 01:41 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: Tinker]
YoungCollector Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 4
I'm located in NC, and I do hand load, however I don't have any real experience with metal working. I have seen a pin-fire reloading kit for sale on the Internet but haven't pursued a purchase of one. How do you go about making your own cartridges?
Thanks for the information about the manufacture.

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#149896 - 06/01/09 04:48 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: YoungCollector]
George L. Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 1337
Loc: South Carolina
Y.C.: James Stockham is a recognized authority on British pinfires and has an amazing collection. He is located here in South Carolina and you can reach him at nowhere@famview.com or (864) 646-7994.

Best Regards, George Lander
_________________________
To see pics of my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "Other Sale Items" palmettotreasure@aol.com

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#149897 - 06/01/09 05:00 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: YoungCollector]
2-piper Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 9848
Loc: Lynchburg TN
YC;
I have an I Hollis & Sons percussion muzzle loader which when I was young I hunted with quite a bit. Always enjoyed it & it was quite dependable. New pinfire shotguns were still being listed in the 1911 Alfa (German) catalog, don't know just when the last one may have been made. As Tinker said Isaac Hollis was an English maker & my ML'r bears Birminghsm proof marks as your pinfire likely does as well. My ML'r carries a combined proof mark in which the bbls were proofed only once with the definitive proof load. As best as I can determine this was not an option prior to 1887, fairly late for a ML'r, so Hollis may have produced guns which were technically obsolete upon order. If you can post all the proof marks (pictures preferable) they should give some clue as to it's build date.
_________________________
Miller

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#149905 - 06/01/09 05:51 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: 2-piper]
YoungCollector Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 4
Thanks Miller, here are some quick shots of the proof marks. Let me know if I should isolate them for more of a close up of each one....
Thanks Again
Kevin





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#149927 - 06/01/09 08:58 PM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: YoungCollector]
2-piper Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 9848
Loc: Lynchburg TN
Kevin;
Lack of a chamber marking would I believe date it to prior to 1887. The Crown/BP is the provisional proof (Temporary), Crossed Scepters with V is the view mark & Crossed Scepters with BPC is for the definitive proof (Final). These are Birmingham marks & of course are all Black Powder proofs. The 13 for the bore size would indicate it accepted at time of proof a plug gauge of .710" in dia, but would not accept one of .729". These marks were all in use for a long period so about all I can say with certainty is it would certainly seem to pre-date 1887. It would in fact appear to be slightly older than my ML'r.
_________________________
Miller

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#149949 - 06/02/09 12:31 AM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: 2-piper]
Tinker Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 802
Loc: Palomino Valley, NV
YC-


You're likely best off taking chamber casts of both chambers and sending them to Rocky Mountain Cartridge - have them make you a batch of cases for your gun. You'll wait a few weeks, and you won't miss what little money it'll cost to have them take care of it for you.

From there it's pretty simple and you'll love running your pinfire shotgun.




Cheers
Tinker

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#149979 - 06/02/09 09:31 AM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: Tinker]
YoungCollector Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 4
Do any of you think this gun would be worth restoring? When disassembled there is evidence that it was once color case hardened...
Let me know what you think, by the way how much does that kind of thing cost from someone who is reputable...?

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#149981 - 06/02/09 09:46 AM Re: Isaac Hollis & Sons pinfire side-by-side [Re: YoungCollector]
Tinker Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 802
Loc: Palomino Valley, NV
YC-


Worth it or not is subjective.
A proper restoration will be expensive - likely much more than you have into the gun.
You'll never see the restoration money again by way of resale value, and unless the very best effort and resource is put into the project you'll very likely end up decreasing the value substantially in the process.
There is little you can do to *increase* the value, and frankly the best thing you can do for the value is to get it running.
Still that's not going to make it much more valuable to anyone who'd want to buy it (and run it or not) anyway.

Where a gun like this shines is in the hands of someone who will appreciate it for what it is, who is enthusiastic about the period of development of the breech-loading cartridge high-grade sporting gun - and who will be able to enjoy the subtle design and construction features of a nice Brit sporting gun.
No doubt it handles and balances very nicely, no doubt it'd serve you for decades on game in the field and as a fine work of craft and art in your parlour.



Cheers
Tinker

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