doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J. Manton

This is an old WELL WORN 10 ga that belonged to a family friends
Grandfather. They brought it over for me to look at.
The Locks are marked J. Manton and the barrel rib is engraved Fine Damascus Steel and it has London Proof marks on the barrels.
Is this really from the fabled Jos. Manton shop?

Looks like a bad use of his name.

Stallones, the problem was, I am told, that by the time percussion guns were at the fore Manton had gone bust too many times, was in poor health and was selling stuff with his name just to try to settle debts etc, I think guns were going out from other sources as well. Certainly the later Manton stuff is nothing like the earlier stuff with reference to quality, I am sure there a couple of chaps on here who can tell you. Are there any date stamps on the flats ? best, Mike Bailey

Stallones, the problem was, I am told, that by the time percussion guns were at the fore Manton had gone bust too many times, was in poor health and was selling stuff with his name just to try to settle debts etc, I think guns were going out from other sources as well. Certainly the later Manton stuff is nothing like the earlier stuff with reference to quality, I am sure there a couple of chaps on here who can tell you. Are there any date stamps on the flats ? best, Mike Bailey

No date stamps,but the gun is medium high quality, with very nice locks, not quite Jno. Stanton quality,but still nice and tight.I have one near identical made by Wm Moore that I believe worked for Manton, so maybe he made it while at Manton.

There's a nice Belgium Manton hammer gun on here...

http://www.griffinhowe.com/usedgun-sg.cfm

I suspect that what your friends gun is.

Stallones, oddly I had a Wm, Moore with a side lever. If I remember correctly it gave an address on the top rib as Oxford Street, London which was never a true Wm. Moore address; clearly a forgery. It had Birmingham proof marks, which may also have been forged. I de-activated it to proof house standards so that it could be sold as a wall piece. This particular gun was of very poor quality and not safe for use. A lot of the better known Gunmakers in Britain had their works forged. Sometimes if not sure they need to be looked at by an expert on the Maker.

Not saying that there was anything wrong with your Moore; I have a little beauty by him in 20 bore. But that Manton above doesn't look to me as being right somehow. Lagopus.....

I'll say it...there's something fishy about that Manton.

lagopus
My William Moore has William Moore and Co. Engraved on the locks and on the top rib. Also has London- Fine Twist and is a very well made gun with serial number 50 on the action and bbls.Early gun with 11 ga bbls and cyl/cyl

Stallones: I'm kind of with Mike, Joe & Lagopus on that one. It just doesn't look up to John or Joe Manton's level of finish. The Belgian proof marks are another givaway. If you like it & it shoots and handles well, who cares?

Best Regards, George

This gun is in my opinion yet another example of the trade in spurious guns.A trade that became a threat to legitimate British makers during the mid to late 1800,s. At one time I owned two guns similar to the one seen in this post;one was marked, Moore, London and the second, Nock, Fleet Street,London;both guns were spurious.
W.W. Greener, along with many other leading makers of the era suffered from this illegal trade practice.Greener describes this trade in his book," The Gun and its development," pages 415&416. Sub heading; "The spurious gun and its detection".Greener suffered much from the spurious trade. He states; "all guns marked, Horace Greener, Albert Greener,J.H; W.H;A.H;and other H.Greener guns are pracically fogeries!" In 1895 he was awarded 5,500 pounds stirling damages against one party engaged in the spurious gun trade.
Greener expresses sympathy for Westley Richards descibing the use of the name, "Richards" on spurious guns as being legion!We see many posts on this forum enquiring about guns bearing the name," Richards", almost all are of Belgian origin,and of inferior quality.Most of the guns we see marked, "Richards" were marketed in North America by H&D.Folsom of N.Y.

The gun just looks "belgian" to me. However, you say it has London proofs? Hmmmmm. Two things come to mind. One, it is an outright fake, complete with bogus proof. Two, the Manton brand was carried on in a shop in Calcutta, as I recall, long after there was no Manton or gunmaking in the firm. The Manton name had too much Brand Value (BV) to just die gracefully. Soooo, perhaps it is a gun that passed through their shop much as such "name" guns passed through American hardware stores.

Check the proof marks again. Mantons don't say J. Manton. They say Joseph Manton. I have a J. Manton and mine has Belgian proof marks. Mine is a cheap knock off and an 1800's replica of a Chinatown Rolex.

I've also seen W. Richards knock offs of a Westley Richards.

I hope yours is the real deal, but please have the integrity of the gun checked by a competent gunsmith before attempting to fire it.

OT but this 10g (not 12 as labeled) sidelever Folsom/W. Richards was on display at the NRA convention and used by Clint Eastwood as William Munny in "Unforgiven."
"Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a [censored]! You just shot an unarmed man!" "Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend."





and John Wayne's "Greener" in "Big Jake" was a Folsom/American Gun Co. (not American Arms, Boston as labeled)



Lots more 'Richards' and 'T Barker' pics here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20091267

Looking at the quality of this gun I'd say it's a fake Greener.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129954923

Came accross another lOndon Manton..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129960670

Here's a nice use of Scotts name.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129979554

Should be listed as JABC Scott.

Here's nice lOndon Moore...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130038723

Our Buddy Ed might cut us a deal on this one fine lOndon Moore and Harris...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130302066

Here's your classic lOndon Hemmingway...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130105751

Another nice lOndon made Evans

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130165427

I have a 1926 repro Manton catalog from Cornell Publications. They had a wide range from muzzleloaders to high grade double rifles and shotguns. Some of their guns were very basic, and clearly labeled Manton but made by someone else. The catalog has cartridge specs, lots of gear and info. Worth getting. Bob

Several posts here seem to treat the Joseph Manton and John Manton firms interchangeably, which isn't correct.



Obviously not. Possibly John, but certainly not Joseph. The Joseph Manton firm was long gone by the advent of the breechloader.



Wrong Manton again. Moore worked for Joseph, not John, and was long, long gone from Manton by the advent of the breechloader.



Again, wrong Manton. It couldn't be Joseph Manton to begin with and, late in it's run, the John Manton firm did use "J. Manton" on lesser quality guns.

Since Stallones says that the proof marks are London, and it does appear to be an early breechloader, the assumptions that the gun is Belgian or fake aren't on solid ground without further data. In this case, the photos are essentially worthless without including the barrel flats and water table.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129954923

Nitro you think this is a real Greener ?

No doubt allot of English makers made "basic guns"...but not many big name makers made low quality basic guns.

Stallones, that Moore I had was among a batch of old scrappers that I got from someone in order to de-activate as wall pieces; it didn't need a practiced eye to show it was a fake. It was often the better known makers that were forged. No doubt yours will be genuine as you would soon spot the deception. Some guns marked W.Richards will be of that firm from Liverpool and Preston and will be good guns. W.Richards is still in business and the owner says he gets a lot of queries, especially from the States, about 'his' guns and as he has full records he has to disappoint quite a few people. I saw a gun recently marked J. Pardey!

Homeless Joe, that Greener that you put the link to is no more a Greener that I am and if someone is preparred to bid $2,800 then there is no hope for them. I have a Greener forgery marked W.J.Greenen The Strand, London which believe it or not is of quite good quality and almost certainly made by C.J.Bonehill of Birmingham and finished by someone who thought it necessary to fool the buyer. I will post some pictures of it tomorrow. Forged gun collecting could become an art in itself and none too expensive either. Lagopus.....

Any gun marked "London Fine Twist", "London Fine Damascus" or "Fine Damascus Steel" on the barrel rib is suspicious in my book...
Proof marks can easily be faked but quality cannot to the trained eye.

If you mean faked well enough to fool a knowledgeable person, well, maybe. But they almost never are.

I now believe this was John Manton . The proof marks are Birmingham,not London as seen below. The gun does not have rebounding hammers and appears to be early 1870's to me.
Also the barrels are laminated,not Fine Damascus as engraved on the rib.

I found this pic in my files Leighton, but couldn't find the pic of the top rib which I believe was 'J. Manton London.' Note the 'W?' on the bottom rib that looks like your 'W'.

Amazing
Drew,the initials are FW and on the Rib is J.Manton- London also.
Boothroyds book indicated that John Manton's wife formed a partnership with a Charles Coe after John died in 1854 and lasted until 1878 which would be the period these two would have been made. Interesting stuff!

Pictures of a Greener forgery marked W.J.Greenen, The Strand, London in gothic script on the top rib. The action is a Bonehill/ Mathews patent top lever cocking action and almost certainly the work of C.G.Bonehills. Looks like someone bought the action and finished the job and added a spurious name to try to trade on the more famous W.W.Greener. I think that the gun was intended for the foreign market as it has sling swivels on the barrel and the one in the stock having been removed, something very rarely seen on an English game gun. The 'game scene' engraving is most odd in that it depicts cranes and palm trees! It is still of good quality so why pass it off as someone elses work is the mystery. It is a non-ejector having been built around 1881. The original stock would look good on any gun. Anyway, here goes: Lagopus.....

Not sure I'm following you...what makes it a forgery ?

George,

He said the proofs were London.

DLH

Take the time to read alittle closer and you'll see he recanted that.

If it is about the gun I posted the name Greenen was made up to be able to sell guns trading on the name of the famous W.W.Greener. Greener actually had a court case against the person using the name Greenen. Quite a few turn up and some were made in Belgium and some, like this one, were made using a Birmingham made action bought in the trade. This one of the better quality versions. I shall be visiting Greeners later this month about a Greener gun I have that they want photos of to feature in a forthcoming book. They are also interested in this gun; above, as he assumed that the vast majority were made in Belgium. There never was a maker called Greenen at The Strand, London. Usually on these forgery guns the address is somewhere vague on a prestigious street in London such as Oxford Street or The Strand but no actual street number is given. Lagopus.....

Mike: During your visit, could you please take ultra close up pics of the new Greener old damascus barrels? Thanks!

Drew, yes certainly if they are available. Lagopus.....

it's not greener forgery but genuine greenen. why would they leave 'D' 'L' on there if they wanted it to be a faker? Faker piece would have 'S' 'F' or 'C' 'U' instead no?

How did Greener sue the guy for using Greenen ?

Action was taken by Greener in 1895 under the British Merchandise Marks Act. In this case the unscrupulous company would receive an order for a Greener gun.The order was filled by stamping the name Greener on a gun of Belgian origin and shipping same to the unsuspecting customer. It is recorded that this same company was abusing the name of other British makers in a similar fashion.Greener was awarded 5000 pounds stirling in damages.
The company in question was a large volume dealer based in Australia.

A very bad knock off.



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130272781

Pete

As for the Greenen, I was going by what Greeners told me on the subject; there is some mention of the action in Greener's book The Gun & Its Development.

A number of these Greenens turn up and having discussed the subject in the Internetgunclub site they put the name into their search facility.

The 'D' and the 'L' stand for Discharged and Loaded and were cocking indicators. A lot of people were mistrusting of the safety of some of these early hammerless actions and a number have some sort of patent loaded indicator.

Pete, that one is a shocker! I wish now that I had a photo of that James Pardey that I came across. Lagopus.....

Today I posted an interesting item on genuine;Made by Joseph Manton guns. The post can be seen under the post, Vintage Doubles in India.