doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Problems to look for in Ithaca (Flues/NID)?

I've recently begun my search for a shotgun that fits me. What I found is that some older SxS shotguns have a stock that actually fits! I'm a pretty tall guy, so this is tough. I was pleased to find some nice handling shotguns that actually kept my shoulders and neck somewhat comfortable (I'll have to add a longer butt pad). The problem is that they're old, have wear and tear, and most importantly....I dont know what problem areas to look at.

I'm leaning toward the Ithaca doubles right now, I think I handled a Flues model. It seemed simple, comfortable and priced right for a gun that will spend the remainder of its life in my hands hunting quail though rain, shine, dirt and dust. Not abused, but used.

Is there a sort of top 10 checklist to look for when checking out a new Ithaca Flues or NID? Also, where do most of you look for these guns, local shops or the usual internet sites?

Thanks for any help!

Take care,
Brad

Brad, just curious, why are you ruling out the E F Fluse Model? It's my favorite model and you can get lots of good prices on the Flues.

Tim

Not certain why these guns fit you so well--maybe lots of drop at heel? If so, there's going to be some lessening of that characteristic over the yrs. NIDs made in the thirties are relatively high and straight on the comb in my experience. The skinny on the Flues is that thin-sectionned action bars on small bores cracked under loads that other guns made before 1920 tolerated. I've never heard of a specific checklist for vetting Flues model; might be the checks that you make on any doublegun would be sufficient. I'm not sure how you spot incipient cracking but believe you would look closely at the root of the angle between standing breech and water table.

jack

Hi Tim,

I havent ruled anything out, I probably just dont know about the gun you're talking about. I'm an admitted "know nothing" on vintage guns...thats why I'm here asking you fine people!

What is an E F Fluse Model? I just typed it into google and came up short.

Brad

Hi Jack,

Thats kind of what I was thinking regarding the drop at heel. Not very knowledgeable in the fine art of shotgun fitting though, so it could be any number of things.

I believe the gentlemen who deisigned the fluse model had the first name Emil. As to your questions on the guns I would say you want barrels without dents or deep pitting, ribs between the barrels that appear solid, screw slots undamaged or turned vertical, bores bright and without pitting and chokes intact, unless your hunting grouse and woodcock, but the price should reflect the lost chokes. Wood should be without cracks, homemade art or damage from pcychosis. It should fit you properly, as you note, and the mechanicals should function. The main test for unseen trouble is the "ring test". Hang the barrels on your fingers by the hook and strike them with the plastic handle of a screw driver just enough to hear a bell like ring. If it is not there avoid the gun. Also take the forearm off and see if movement occurs when reverse pressure is put on the frame and barrels. A small amount can be easily fixed, but if there is alot you may want to pass unless the price is really good to you and you see more in the gun that you like. I am sure others here will think of something I didn't mention or correct any bemuddling I have conveyed. Also Flues models are frequently lighter in weight than NIDs, but a 12ga NID weighs around 7lbs which is a nice weight IMO.

When Googling Flues, it's often helpful to have the correct spelling. This link should help with some useful info:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=4625&highlight=flues

A Flues Ithaca is far less likely to fit you (too much drop) than is an NID Ithaca, assuming you prefer a gun with relatively modern dimensions--although there are exceptions.

Ya sure, Larry? Seen a few longnecks with those Morgan pads offset low on a trapgun. Could it be possible that some of these fellows CAN'T prefer a high, straight stock? Course you can't be a bullethead and deal with the drop at face on these old residenters either, can you?

jack

The Flues action has a reputation of being prone to cracking. Ive only had two NID guns and both of them would open when fired, Macintosh said the early NID had that tendency, both of mine are early cocking indicator guns. I think the Remington 1894 is a lot of gun for the money and they can be had with steel barrels and ejectors pretty cheap if you watch gunbroker.

Jack, you see many guns these days coming from the factory with 3" (or more) DAH? There are always exceptions, like guys who need 16" LOP. But they are very rare. If shooters back in the Flues era shot the same way we do today, the average guy would've had to have been about 5'5" (stocks were also shorter) with a neck that would've put Audrey Hepburn to shame.

I'm almost 100% sure that its the 3"+ drop at heel which is making these guns fit me. I handled some more classics this weekend, including a H&H from 1890'something, and the common thread was high drop at heel.

If the lever is to the left on a Flues, is this a huge red flag? Replace parts for less than $100?

Not too far OT since we're discussing 3" drop. This is an actual photograph of prairie chicken hunting in Kansas from American Game-bird Shooting by George Bird Grinnell, 1910. It would be better to have a pic from the side, but the body position looks like that of most wingshooters today, although the shooter is no doubt shorter and with a thinner chest than the average male now. I believe shooters handled the DAH by 'crawling the stock' - extending the neck forward, which also allowed for adjustment of the head on the comb for "cast off."



Check the body and head positions in A.B Frost's c. 1900 illustrations http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20011114

Drew, I'm 5-8/174 and altho not exactly a snapping turtle, I do have a neck and with sufficient clothes I can deal with an LOP under 14" So I think I'm undersized enuf to model this problem. Having attempted to crawl forward on an old Remmy hammergun, an early Flues, early SW pin gun and some other highly cranked old sticks, my usual experience of needing a periscope to get over the rib suggests that you are full of beans. But it could be another matter of stature: maybe I'm a low brow (short face). But I don't think so because I measured vertical distance pupil to underside cheekbone a few yrs ago: IIRC pretty much on average. Isn't it amazing that when I put that eye to cheek dimension to vertical advantage, I can see the rib. Granted your foto certainly appears to support your views; wish we knew the gun and the dimensions.

jack

Another wise reader of the "Old Mac"- I just bought a early production 12 NID- field grade 30" Mod. (2) and Imp. Mod (3) choked, DT and AE for $700.00 OTD- I did get to test fire it, it opened a few times when fired with AA trap loads- but the dealer will have that problem fixed as part of the deal. The radius of the lug may need to be redressed slightly-Why didn't anyone know this- the gun has 95% original blue, case and 100% wood- uncut stock, original BP and PG cap- it was stored away and unfired for over 50 years, came from an estate- my first Ithaca- try to buy a ejector 12 Parker or Fox with DT and modern stock dims for $700.00 today. A pal and his wife are both avid grouse and woodcock hunters- he has a Flues 4E 20 DT 28" barrels, she has a Flues 2E 20 with 26" barrels-they have been shooting light loads and killing birds for over 30 years with those old Emil Flues designed guns, never a whimper- And the Ithaca "Knick" SBT-what a quality Trap gun indeed!! RWTF

If any one wants great information about Ithaca then they should purchase Walt Snyder's books.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/snyder_w_ithaca_2nd.htm

Emil Flues was an original American genius gunsmith and designer.
About Emil F. Flues:

Census tract data for Emil Flues:
1870 - Blumfield, Saginaw, Michigan
1880 - Blumfield, Saginaw, Michigan
1890 - census data not available due to fire
1900 - no hits(not unusual)
1910 - Ithaca Ward 5, Tompkins, New York / 316 East Falls Street
1920 - Brooklyn Assembly District 10, Kings, New York / roomer - 63 Berkley(sp?) Place
1930 - Buffalo, Erie, New York / 27 Victoria Ave

1870 - Emil is 9 years old


1880 - Emil is 18 years old


1910 - Emil is 48, with a wife. Occupation listed as Experimental Gun Maker


1920 - Emil is 58 and in a rooming house with his wife. Occupation listed, Gun Maker


1930 - Emil is 68,wife and sister-in-law. Occupation repair. Industry firearms


Emil F. Flues had at least 7 patents:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=j7M-AAAAEBAJ&dq=546516
Patent number: 546516
Filing date: Jan 26, 1895
Issue date: Sep 17, 1895

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=EAtTAAAAEBAJ
Patent number: 980174
Filing date: Feb 19, 1910
Issue date: Dec 27, 1910

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=wJJfAAAAEBAJ
Patent number: 1070441
Filing date: Mar 20, 1912
Issue date: Aug 1913

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=HN8ZAAAAEBAJ
Patent number: 1160157
Issue date: Nov 1915
Inventor: EMIL F. FLUES

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=kMhZAAAAEBAJ
Patent number: 1450496
Filing date: Sep 18, 1919
Issue date: Apr 3, 1923

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=DulSAAAAEBAJ
Patent number: 1312170
Filing date: Nov 22, 1917
Issue date: Aug 5, 1919

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=kMhZAAAAEBAJ&dq=1312170
Patent number: 1450496
Filing date: Sep 18, 1919
Issue date: Apr 3, 1923

1911 Ithaca Ad promoting the Flues.


Ithaca Flues


Ithaca NID


Lefever Nitro, actually Ithaca had taken over Lefever by this point


This is a Flues O/U


For the serial number list
http://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos3.htm

The Flues has a reputation for cracked frames:


If I wanted a shooter for regular use, I would look for a NID or a Lefever Nitro.

By the way, this a Crass.


Pete

Flues cocking levers seem prone to wear causing the pins to retract late and they will drag on primers.

What does this look like to you??? Repaired??
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/21860717@N07/3593953345/[/img]