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Joined: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
I suspect Greener didn't devote much to the subject as his boxlock preference put him in the definite minority in England, yet he really made no great attempt to extoll it's "Superiorty".

I will have to get out my copy of the 1909 "Baker Gunner" but as I recall the Baker Co was extolling the virtues of the Sidelock in it.


Greener had little to say about his box-lock versus the side-locks except that side-locks were no longer necessary once the hammers went inside.

As luck would have it, I just pulled my reprint copy of the 1909 Baker catalog for a buyer selecting from my For Sale List of Shotgunning Ephemera, which on topic says:

"The side-plate lock mechanism was retained [on the new Baker hammerless] as the most satisfactory on account of its greater simplicity, strength, and accessibility." The company goes on to say that it made a box-lock "...which had its adherents, and there was some demand for a baker gun of that model...on account of its cheaper construction..." But after a laundry list of what was wrong with the Baker C-grade box-lock, "...it was decided, therefore, a few years ago, to discontinue its manufacture, giving preference to the present [side-locks]..."

Given that in 1909 the Baker side-locks listed for $21.75; $25.00; $28.00; $37.50; $29.50; $25.00; $41.50; $35.50; and $48.75; and the lowest price Parker VH started at $50.00 without ejectors ($75.00 with), and the Baker Paragon with ejectors was $82.50, with "Model Nineteen-Nine" at $85.00 to $300.00 (with Whitworth bbls), its hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Baker's rationale for quitting the box-lock was that:

"The [Baker C-grade] frame was not as solid and rigid..."

And now a century later the results are in: Neither box-locks or side-locks failed for lack of sufficiently rigid and/or solid frames. Yet what was a one-sided trial-balloon-type declaration of self-serving advertising pap, by Greener (box-locks ca.1881) and Baker and L. C. Smith (years later), was never picked up by the "gun cranks" of the era as a legitimate topic of discussion. Ansley Fox preemptively declared his new gun "The Best Shotgun in the World." I don't recall anybody ever disputing his claim. The rank and file weren't interested in the fine points of self-serving ad hype. Fox's guns had "nosed" hammers, as did the Parker; the Baker side-locks did not, because, according to the 1909 catalog:

"The [Baker C-grade] hammers, having the firing pins on the points ["nosed"], were more liable to break..."

Here it's interesting to note that Del Grego's have drawers full of Parker "nosed" hammers bought from Remington in the 1950s, and in over half a century, "Babe" told me that they have never had occasion to repair or replace even one broken hammer. I guess that's lucky, because according to Baker, they discontinued their C-grade box-lock because:

"The assembling of [Baker C-grade] lock parts on pins through the frame made them more difficult of access and to remove and replace properly."

If this were true, and a real deciding point, one would think that difficult assembly would drive up labor costs, making box-locks less cost effective; at Parker Brothers ca.1909, Walter King is quoted as saying that labor was 80% of the cost of a $100.00 D-grade.

My bracketed insertions of [Baker C-grade] in the Baker sales material is because they never accuse the Fox or Parker or Ithaca of the shortcomings, but merely said that their experience warranted going the route of side-locks on their full line of guns all priced below the competing box-locks that supposedly were cheaper to make. The market today values a top grade Baker Paragon 12-bore, two of which are pictured in my new book, in 100% condition at $1,815 with ejectors (Blue Book 2006). A Parker Trojan box-lock in 100% condition sold recently at public auction for $10,350.

Two points: First, the marketplace doesn't distinguish between lock configuration (then or now); someone who appreciates fine old shotguns can buy a decent Baker Paragon in collectible/shootable condition at a reasonable price. See Dave Noreen's & Phil Murphy's Bakers in my book @ pp. 190-94 and wonder why you don't own one...Baker and/or my new book, which has a chapter on Bakers. Sorry, but the Baker catalog is spoken for, yet my 12-page For Sale Ephemera List is available by e-mail; request to:

knightofthetrigger@yahoo.com

EDM


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Ted, I love the G guns, but love even more the Greener guns with forend ejectors, either Facile Princeps or A and D. I have had several Greeners, but my favorite is a Monarch Imperial 16 ga. Just the finest gun being built at that time ca. 1900. Then they cost 70 Guineas.

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Daryl, I think the Facile Princeps might have been what I had in mind when I typed that! Anyway, right, I'd love the experience of owning one, just not enough to part with the cash to do it. I've been static on doubles in the safe for several years now, although Dad's Beretta Silver Snipe 12 just came to live with me. That makes three.
As to nosed hammers, my one, lone experince was with a friends 700, that broke the nose of the right barrel hammer on the opening shot, of the opening season, of two years past, the pheasant escaped. Said gun was out of commision the rest of the year. It was an expensive fix, as I recall.
Enjoy that Monarch, in 16, no less. A superb upland gun, I imagine. If I owned it, I'd pretty much relegate that gun to bluebird conditions, and use something else in the nasty weather. I've noticed I stumble about a bit more in the field these days as well, and the stock for, say, an American pump is easier to come by than the same for my Tobin, restocked to fit my sorry, lefthanded arse, for example. I'm poor enough that I choose to delay the onset of repairs to the old guns I own, by being ever so careful in their use.
Best,
Ted

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Bogardus...didn't he shoot W&C Scott guns ?

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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
Personally, I believe the Boxlock vs sidelock was always more a British thing than American.


Wasn't the sidelock a safer design than the boxlock ?

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Intercepting sears can be found on both boxlocks and sidelocks, though they may be more common on sidelocks. Neither design is inherently more safe. The only thing that makes a gun safe is proper handling. I do like intercepting sears though. I may post pictures a bit later of a nice gun with them.
Steve


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

Here for the meltdowns
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Q; How long have men argued over the merits of Ford vs Cheverolet?
A; Since both were available!
Q; How long have men argued the merits of Boxlock vs Sidelocks???
A; ?????????????????, Think what you will & back it with all the ""PROOF"" you desire.
I am not convinced!!!


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Who wouldn't like to reread this 12 page thread with Ed Muderlak's great comments and Ted's comment about Olin using an Ithaca instead of a Model 21 to test their new 3 1/2" ten gauge shells, which would be a very tight fit in a Model 21.

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they all are wonderful in their own way...

sorta like women...

Last edited by ed good; 11/30/22 10:33 AM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Very interesting thread.

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