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As always Ed, enjoy your discourses and insight into our beloved doubles-and your "market analysis" proves the point- I can buy and shoot older 12 gauge Elsies and get more "bang for my buck" than I can either Parkers or AH Fox guns-in my area. Smiths are, I believe, a bar actioned sidelocked gun, not a back actioned like some of the "Limey" guns- BFD-- as long as it goes "bang" when I hit the trigger, I could care less- Ditto two 12 Parkers I inherited- both 12 gauge-ejectors, DT-- one was made in 1915-16 and has the earlier 18 pc. design and flat spring top lever- the other was made in 1925 and has the later Hayes redesigned action (4 pc. like the Fox I believe) and a coil spring top lever- both have shot quite well for my late GrandFather-

I was at a GR gun show last Sat. and a dealer/friend from the Niles, MI area had a signed copy of your book "Knight Of The Trigger" and he let me peruse it. In the first Chapter, the name Destry appears- is this an omage to "Market Hunter"-?? Destry H. the "Shootin'ist Gent from Ypsilanti". who is know to have a Parker or two-and knows how to shoot them as well?? Just wondered. RWTF

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 04/26/09 01:21 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
Smiths are, I believe, a bar actioned sidelocked gun, not a back actioned like some of the "Limey" guns


Runner:

Revdocdrew posted these pictures of L. C. Smith locks:





They're backlocks, not barlocks. The mainsprings are behind the lockwork (back action) rather than in the action bar (bar action).


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Originally Posted By: EDM
Someone named Greener thought side-locks to be an anachronism once the cocks went inside in the 1870s...and the most recent reincarnation of the "Elsie" Smith is not a side-lock. I wonder why?

The on-going debate of side-lock versus box-lock is a recent invention. Greener's comment favored his new hammerless box-lock in the context a modernization of the action that was less costly to make.


...and Greener was a lone voice in the wilderness. To suggest that the debate is a recent invention is hilarious. You have a lot of reading to do.


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This is painful, but the L.C. Smith Top-Action Double Cross-Bolted Breech-Loading Double Barrel "Bar Action" Hammer Guns were manufactured by L.C. Smith Maker, Syracuse 1883-1888 and Hunter Arms Co. until 1902.


Last edited by revdocdrew; 04/25/09 04:51 PM.
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Originally Posted By: EDM
Going back to when our favorite SxS's were in current production, there was a tremendous cross-pollination of guns and gun makers on a friendly basis. Old company-to-company correspondence in the hands of collectors shows that business relations were cordial and supportive, even in respect to patent litigation. In the days before the Sherman Act they even agreed on prices. The Interstate Manufacturers and Dealers Association was somewhat of a trust in that it owned and managed organized trapshooting from the early 1890s until it morphed into the current ATA in 1920. The Interstate Assn's BOD consisted of gun makers (like Wilbur Parker Jr.) and ammo company executives.
Ed,

We have spoken about this privately. I am still of the opinion that the trust's played a larger role than we acknowledge today. They controlled not only pricing, but who could sell certain products. Your research in this area is seminal as so little has been written on the subject in recent times. One has to wonder if smaller companies failed as a result of the trusts.

Originally Posted By: EDM
The thing that surprises me is how blatant the the Phila. Fox mimics the Parker's exterior design. It could not have been a good thing to start-up a new business with expensive tooling that simply copied the familiar and visible identity of a well-established product (unless there was a tremendous price advantage). So it's no surprise that the Phila. Fox had a short life, and Ansley's next gun had its own trademark exterior (see McIntosh's Fox book, p. 76 et seq). As to the interior design features, prudent gun makers would analyze the competition so as to avoid inadvertent patent infringement and, thus, maintain the goodwill of others in the business. Whether Ansley pissed off the Brothers Parker with his knock-off...we'll never know.

I stumbled across a small online auction. The sole shotgun with very poor pictures had a hinge pin. I knew the gun would be a project, but for what I paid, no complaints. When I got the gun, thinking it might be a Parker, I was surprised to discover it was Philadelphia Arms Fox. This design had been used for the Baltimore guns as well. McIntosh quotes the "Sporting Goods Dealer" Oct 1899 which stated Fox could not manufacture enough guns to meet demand. Researcher informerd me that this Baltimore gun is actually designed by Frank A.Hollenbeck and that Fox purchased most of their equipment when the company folded.



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Doc Drew were the L.C. Smith Top-Action Double Cross-Bolted Breech-Loading Double Barrel "Bar Action" used only on the hammer models or were they also used on the early hammerless guns as well. I haven't go the intestinal fortitude to pull the locks off of mine to check.

By the way the Quail are starting to pair up and the Roosters are starting to sing a bit. So far it looks like a decent breeding spring here in North East Kansas.

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Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
Originally Posted By: EDM
Someone named Greener thought side-locks to be an anachronism once the cocks went inside in the 1870s...and the most recent reincarnation of the "Elsie" Smith is not a side-lock. I wonder why?

The on-going debate of side-lock versus box-lock is a recent invention. Greener's comment favored his new hammerless box-lock in the context a modernization of the action that was less costly to make.


...and Greener was a lone voice in the wilderness. To suggest that the debate is a recent invention is hilarious. You have a lot of reading to do.


What is hilarious is how the Internet works. People with absolutely nothing to say get to say it anyway, with no peer review or editors interfering. I made the statement about box-locks versus side-locks not being a topic of serious debate when the guns were in current production: This was peer reviewed by Mike Carrick, editor of The Gun Report; Vic Venters, Senior editor of SSM; Dave "Researcher" Noreen; Charlie Price, co-author of The Parker Story; and a number of other experienced gun writers who are actually published in magazines and books. No one questioned my well-researched statement.

Right now I am in the process of inventorying and listing for sale most of my research materials, which include 45 volumes of Shooting & Fishing from 1885 to 1906, read cover to cover as they relate to shotguns and bird shooting (250 pounds of books, 1,092 16- to 24-page weekly issues, over 100,000,000 words). I have also bought, read, and sold the full run of bound annual editions of Forest and Stream--Rod & Gun from Vol. I in August 1877 through about 1890 the first 4 volumes brought $1,200 two years ago); S&F-R&G over-lapped my bound complete run of Shooting & Fishing. I have also bought, read, and sold a great many(over 2000 individual issues of The Chicago Field, and The American Field that dove-tail with my interest in absorbing what there is to know on the subject pre-WWI.

Meanwhile, I have a complete library of American-published shotgunning and shooting flying books from the first in 1783 until WWI, all read, by the way. And I supplement my reading in the rare book room at the National Sporting Library in Middleburg VA when I'm east visiting my kids. This research has resulted in 4 books in 14 years, and over 50 published articles. I am perhaps the only free-lance gun writer who is actually paid $$$ up front plus royalties to write a book. Parker Guns: The "Old Reliable" has sold over 8,000 copies and is running out the second printing; my new book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying and the American Experience has over 30 dealers on Amazon cutting each other's throats selling it.

And then along comes somebody puesdo-named "400 Nitro Express," and with zero information to contribute, he says my well-researched, well-documented, and throughly vetted statement about the dearth of 19th century box-lock versus side-lock debate is "hilarious." And that I, of all people, "...have a lot of reading to do."

So the lesson here is how low the bar is when it comes to posting cryptic comments on the Internet. And the sad part is that these people get to vote.

Please be advised that I have no vested interest in whether there was much or little or no debate; if I had found any I would have reported it as a story line in the subject chapter on the topic. The lack of quotable quotes left me with Greener's pronouncement, which reflected his vested interest in his new box lock. End of story...

...except that my wealth of research materials, including original and reprint catalogs, advertising, post-WWI books, pulp-weekly newspapers, bound editions of pulp-weeklies, and shotgun- and ammo-related collectibles (used in my photography) will be sold over the Internet by e-Mailed lists for those who e-mail me to inquire and request info after my ad in the Summer Parker Pages is published. Thus "400 Nitro Express" has given me an excuse to toot my own horn and show that his sour lemon is my lemonade. EDM


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Great news TB
Have you seen this? http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20611291

Here's a backyard Gambel's taunting my oppositional setter dog



And very soon we'll see this



The Alexander Brown 1886 patent hammerless Smith guns (from the beginning) are back action.

Last edited by revdocdrew; 04/25/09 06:50 PM.
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Originally Posted By: EDM
Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
Originally Posted By: EDM
Someone named Greener thought side-locks to be an anachronism once the cocks went inside in the 1870s...and the most recent reincarnation of the "Elsie" Smith is not a side-lock. I wonder why?

The on-going debate of side-lock versus box-lock is a recent invention. Greener's comment favored his new hammerless box-lock in the context a modernization of the action that was less costly to make.


...and Greener was a lone voice in the wilderness. To suggest that the debate is a recent invention is hilarious. You have a lot of reading to do.


What is hilarious is how the Internet works. People with absolutely nothing to say get to say it anyway, with no peer review or editors interfering. I made the statement about box-locks versus side-locks not being a topic of serious debate when the guns were in current production: This was peer reviewed by Mike Carrick, editor of The Gun Report; Vic Venters, Senior editor of SSM; Dave "Researcher" Noreen; Charlie Price, co-author of The Parker Story; and a number of other experienced gun writers who are actually published in magazines and books. No one questioned my well-researched statement.

Right now I am in the process of inventorying and listing for sale most of my research materials, which include 45 volumes of Shooting & Fishing from 1885 to 1906, read cover to cover as they relate to shotguns and bird shooting (250 pounds of books, 1,092 16- to 24-page weekly issues, over 100,000,000 words). I have also bought, read, and sold the full run of bound annual editions of Forest and Stream--Rod & Gun from Vol. I in August 1877 through about 1890 the first 4 volumes brought $1,200 two years ago); S&F-R&G over-lapped my bound complete run of Shooting & Fishing. I have also bought, read, and sold a great many(over 2000 individual issues of The Chicago Field, and The American Field that dove-tail with my interest in absorbing what there is to know on the subject pre-WWI.

Meanwhile, I have a complete library of American-published shotgunning and shooting flying books from the first in 1783 until WWI, all read, by the way. And I supplement my reading in the rare book room at the National Sporting Library in Middleburg VA when I'm east visiting my kids. This research has resulted in 4 books in 14 years, and over 50 published articles. I am perhaps the only free-lance gun writer who is actually paid $$$ up front plus royalties to write a book. Parker Guns: The "Old Reliable" has sold over 8,000 copies and is running out the second printing; my new book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying and the American Experience has over 30 dealers on Amazon cutting each other's throats selling it.

And then along comes somebody puesdo-named "400 Nitro Express," and with zero information to contribute, he says my well-researched, well-documented, and throughly vetted statement about the dearth of 19th century box-lock versus side-lock debate is "hilarious." And that I, of all people, "...have a lot of reading to do."

So the lesson here is how low the bar is when it comes to posting cryptic comments on the Internet. And the sad part is that these people get to vote.

Please be advised that I have no vested interest in whether there was much or little or no debate; if I had found any I would have reported it as a story line in the subject chapter on the topic. The lack of quotable quotes left me with Greener's pronouncement, which reflected his vested interest in his new box lock. End of story...

...except that my wealth of research materials, including original and reprint catalogs, advertising, post-WWI books, pulp-weekly newspapers, bound editions of pulp-weeklies, and shotgun- and ammo-related collectibles (used in my photography) will be sold over the Internet by e-Mailed lists for those who e-mail me to inquire and request info after my ad in the Summer Parker Pages is published. Thus "400 Nitro Express" has given me an excuse to toot my own horn and show that his sour lemon is my lemonade. EDM


Edward, we've already established that you're the smartest guy in the room, please don't rub our noses in it.

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Rev:
I don't know about your neighborhood but in mine the Quail are everywhere. I've lived here for 14 years now and I can't believe the numbers I'm seeing. We had a wet Winter and a wetter than usual early Spring which I think has increased the food supply and perhaps the survival rate. All this bodes for a banner Quail season come Fall.
Jim


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